1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Jimmy's latest AMS2 review

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by farcar, Jun 17, 2021.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. DaVeX

    DaVeX AMSUnofficial Staff AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,970
    Likes Received:
    1,041
    Ahem...sorry but no,calling "fanboys" the others while they were suggesting him how to improve handling and setup the game properly is a good example of toxicity...

    Also the lack of oversteer meme...come on...
    We move from someone driving a Praga to another without driving license but with common nonsense lol
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. mister dog

    mister dog Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2016
    Messages:
    661
    Likes Received:
    308
    I didn't follow any 'sim racing drama' that occured afterwards to be honest, but his conclusions were pretty good at the time IMO. Point still stands that GM would have played AMS2 for hours on end in his basement before he puts his opinions out there, which is what disturbs me the most about Jimmy B as he just jumps in and drives for 15 mins before he does the same.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. TekNeil

    TekNeil Take me back to the 2.4l, twin 50 weber days...

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2020
    Messages:
    412
    Likes Received:
    229
    Agreed.
    From bits I have seen, it's always very little delving (For whatever reason) into the large offering of content that the 'Madness' engined games have.

    And AMS2 has bucket loads of content.
    As a 'Reviewer' surely that should be an obvious reason to test how broad and comparatively different (Good/Bad) the mass of content is.
    If people were to at least properly and publicly give it a thorough test, I think their thoughts on it would be considered more valid.

    Part of the problem IMO is that a lot of youtubers (And players alike), may have a preference regards game engine.(#MadnessEngineGate?) And many can't or just won't dedicate enough time towards an engine they dislike for 'x' reason.

    If that is the case, then it's not a fair review built on proper testing.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. farcar

    farcar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2016
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    1,043
    Thank you, and this was the main reason I started this thread.
    'Dismissive' is the right word. I just think its unfair to be dismissive of a small but very dedicated developer in a niche genre.

    And I don't think Jimmy was being malicious or dishonest.
    He seems like a good bloke and is obviously passionate about motorsport, and he made some valid points about physics. And yes, he made a couple of positive comments about AMS2 and Reiza. All of that is fine. This isn't about positive or negative opinions.

    Rather than malicious or dishonest, I think his video was just a bit lazy.
    It seemed slapped together because there was enough demand for AMS2 content.
    But it barely scratched the surface, and AMS2 is a deep game.

    Like it or not Jimmy's videos are influential, and I'm sure can impact sales and bottom lines which, for a small company like Reiza, can probably hurt quite a lot.
    As they say, 'with power, comes responsibility' so, I'm just disappointed that Jimmy didn't consider a more comprehensive video, to give his 700k subscribers a broader overview, and give Reiza a 'fair go'.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Like Like x 2
  5. Mhad

    Mhad Active Member AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2020
    Messages:
    309
    Likes Received:
    208
    I don't think that has ever been his style though. Jimmy is an entertainment channel really. He drives and reacts "live" (I know it is recorded / prepared but it's a live style).

    I don't think I've ever seen him do a review video like Sim Racing 604 does analysing different aspects of the game and scoring out of 10.

    In hardware reviews there are people that read the marketing blurb whilst driving with a new wheel, and there is Sim Racing Garage levels of review. One is more popular on YouTube, and one is where you go to actually see the thing you want to buy being reviewed.

    Jimmy can't change his style now, that is his USP.
     
  6. CJ56

    CJ56 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2020
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    5
    That does seem frustrating to have your livelihood in the hands of a youtuber but it also seems like if he just reviewed it and then never followed up on it a lot of people would also consider that unfair. Honestly, I think Empty Box's take on the default setup thing and the fact that people like Steelcast and so on frequently recommend setups to remedy people's issues with the handling characteristics might mean it's time to make new defaults and, if it's being worked on, to finalize automating everything to do with that documents folder.

    edit:

    While I agree that pcars2 and ams2 aren't the same just because they use the same game engine, this is a flawed analogy because ACC isn't using UE4's physics, it's just using it for the renderer and probably map tools whereas madness was chosen for ams2 partly because of the deal (source code access, free), but also because of it's physics and tire model.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. oez

    oez Mayor of Long Beach AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2020
    Messages:
    677
    Likes Received:
    659
    This is one of the big reasons why AMS2 clicks with me. It actually addresses multiple things you see and hear in real life racing or cars in general that have been selectively less simulated in most other sims:
    • Bumpy, rattling ride in stiff cars (or at Long Beach period)
    • Unpredictable grip levels thanks to ever changing track conditions
    • Tyre temperature management is a pain at sone tracks and outside optimal tarmac temps
    • Fiat Uno going sideways at Interlagos T1
    • Weather
    • Catchable slides without tank slapper
    • Tyre flex as part of suspension
    • Importance of bare minimum setup changes to last a demanding race (see bumps, extreme tracks and temps)
    • AI that races you hard, but fair

    There are many reasons to take AMS2 seriously as a simulator. More seriously than others in some cases. This really depends on what each player wants from a sim. But for sure all of these points are under development as well to reach great balance across all cars. And much of this seems to slip under the radar in ”sim or simcade” discussion

    If someone’s definition of a sim is satisfying handling with a good online ecosystem then sure AMS2 may have offered a rocky ride. But even then I would highlight catchable slides as those are very satisfying when pushing the car.

    By the way: see the rear biased tyre temperatures on some YT videos that show enough of the steering wheel display. That will make the car feel fishy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
    • Agree Agree x 8
    • Like Like x 3
  8. azaris

    azaris Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2020
    Messages:
    1,154
    Likes Received:
    578
    Many of the issues people have with the physics can be traced to the dynamic nature of the tyre model but are knee-jerked to "simcade" for some reason. Not to say that all criticism is misinformed, some of it is well-informed and to the point. But if AMS2 cars are "easier" to drive than other sims (read: easy to drive far below the limit), it's because the Seta tyre model has a shallower grip peak. This allows a lot more play and driving to what the car is telling you instead of feeling that you're just playing a video game with predetermined understeer/oversteer signals that you must train your muscle memory to react to. You see this in the Jimmer video when he almost loses the car but is able to catch the monster slide because he intuitively knows what to do. For a moment he's almost impressed until his brain kicks in and tells him "you know you could never do this in iRacing" and then I guess he defaults to "must be a simcade then".

    When you overdrive cars to the extent that the rear tyres overheat, the car becomes dangerous to drive. This happened to GM, it happened to Ermin, and it happened to Jimmer. If you have no clue that this is happening, it feels random and broken. We're used to sims from the previous generation with predictable handling where overdriving at best gives you some additional understeer. Same thing with the setups, in other sims a bad setup at usually means you get some understeer and are several seconds off pace. In AMS2 the car can be bouncing uncontrollably or spin like a top on braking if the setup is way off. Again, not to say the default setups couldn't be improved or that everything is perfect.

    The combination of being both more forgiving below the limit and being less forgiving to bad driving, poor setups, and fluctuating conditions is also what I like about AMS2 but is often criticised or even attacked in the comments to these videos. People who just want a polished GT3s at Spa -experience where you can memorise your inputs until you can hotlap consistently and then jump to an online lobby 24-7 probably will find AMS2 frustrating. But then again, aren't there enough GT3s at Spa -simulators already?
     
    • Agree Agree x 9
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. Andrex

    Andrex New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2021
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    8
    I own almost all racing simulators (sience Indy 500) and have the most fun with AMS2 at the moment, so I do not care what others think about AMS2
     
    • Agree x 6
    • Winner x 3
    • Like x 2
    • Funny x 1
    • Useful x 1
  10. bobbie424242

    bobbie424242 Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    487
    Great post and would make for a great Reiza developer video to expand on this and dispel some myths.

    Many simracers want super predictable (and easy to drive) cars to be able to churn out lap after lap consistently without giving much a thought about it. As soon as physics are evolving over time making the car trickier to handle, they think something is broken or that it is "simcade".
    I like how the handling of the car is evolving in AMS2 as you advance in a race, as it keep you on your toes at all times.
    I could see streamers hating that because they have to talk at the same time and it makes it difficult to remain concentrated driving with the car handling evolving.

    It ultimately all comes down to simracers physics expectations: they think they want physics as close to reality as possible but in practice they don't, and expect some idealized physics partly rooted in what current and previous sims did. What if in reality a car has almost no FFB, or has muffled cockpit sounds, or is truly difficult or hard to drive making it a chore ? => if a sim mirrors that, players will think it has bad FFB, bad sounds and broken physics.
    Thus it raises the question about how much sim developers tweaks the physics to caters to their user-base expectations, sometimes going against what would happen in real life:
    "Let's make the physics how most players expect them rather than closer to reality and that they may hate".



     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  11. RDG

    RDG Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2021
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    70
    This is a prime example for modern day tribalism between sims.

    If Lewis Hamilton came out and said AMS2 is the most realistic sim you'd be over the moon and using it as an example as to why 'your sim' is the best at every corner.

    If Lewis came out and said ACC is the most realistic, you'd simply disregard the statement and claim he's been paid off.

    Stop caring about what 'experts' say, drive all of the sims and make up your own mind which one you prefer most and just drive. Life is too short to bicker about which sim does what better.
     
    • Agree Agree x 12
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. Alex76

    Alex76 Member AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2019
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    47
    Whilst I agree with that I do feel the default setups in AMS2 needs some work.

    One of the great things about AMS2 is how the cars react to setup changes generally as you would expect them to, unlike other sims. In iracing for example the setups, while maybe very realistic, are impenetrable it feels like you'd need to be an actual race engineer to set a car up.
    In AMS2 setups are farm more intuitive and easy to understand and it's quite easy to alter the balance of cars.

    However, I think there are issues with the default setups, first impressions count and the default setups aren't giving a lot of people a good first impression. For a start I particularly feel that cars with adjustable LSDs are set far too open across the board, which leads to some odd handling characteristics. The feel of most cars is vastly improved by a bit, or a lot, more diff locking (as you'll see in most of @steelreserv 's setups).

    Setups are a matter of personal preference but some of them are just wonky (the Group Cs for example). That's not something that's unique to AMS2 default setups are pretty bad in most sims, but there are well established resources for custom setups with most other sims.

    I know that redoing the default setups, and maybe offering options for default stable / loose, qualifying / race setups, would probably be a big task for Reiza but I feel that it's something that the community could help with.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. mister dog

    mister dog Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2016
    Messages:
    661
    Likes Received:
    308
    Seems he read your roast yesterday and decided to set things straight! :D
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. DaVeX

    DaVeX AMSUnofficial Staff AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,970
    Likes Received:
    1,041
    Recorded 29/12/2019...
    Maybe after playing a little more AMS2 can do better...
    Btw at least 20 mins vid and no breakfast and battling with in-game options for hours lol
     
  15. mister dog

    mister dog Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2016
    Messages:
    661
    Likes Received:
    308
    That doesn't look like UK winter to me though haha.
     
  16. DavitW

    DavitW New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2021
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    5
    My only real experience with Jimmy is a time when I was watching him stream Gran Turismo 3 and I got banned for suggesting him to get an oil change.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  17. buddhatree

    buddhatree Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2016
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    66
    If I turn off damper in my wheel settings and use only the in-game damper as suggested, I get very heavy oscillations under braking, even with a low damper setting such as 5.

    If I turn off in-game damper and only use my wheel's damper, the oscillations are gone.

    It's been like that for me since in-game damper was introduced.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. David Peres

    David Peres Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2018
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    119
    I'm at work and can't watch the video with sound right now... but I'm wondering if he experienced lift-off oversteer in the real car :D
     
  19. bobbie424242

    bobbie424242 Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    487
    Or unrealistic physics, **** sound and broken FFB.
     
  20. mister dog

    mister dog Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2016
    Messages:
    661
    Likes Received:
    308
    Maybe around the 6:35 mark, no pedal cam tho :p
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page