Madness Engine and AMS3

Something's been worrying me for the future

Will Reiza still have access to the Madness Engine for a future AMS3 title? It's such a real, real shame that SMS was bought out by Codemasters, who were then bought out by EA, only to be bought out by the Saudis of all people, who now own the Madness Engine outright. The Madness Engine is now 3x removed from the original license agreement, with SMS, the original license holder, now all but destroyed and mostly forgotten.

Will it be possible for Reiza to continue using the Madness Engine for a future title despite the remoteness of the license acquisition? Perhaps Ian Bell was crafty enough to give Renato license to the engine indefinitely for as long as Reiza exists, no matter who owns the Madness Engine as time passes?

The reason I ask, looking at PMR as an example, Striaght 4 was forced to start from scratch, and what they've built is just not better than what Madness Engine is capable of. It's not next gen. It's a sideways step that is now considerably behind the curve. And in the hands of Reiza, Madness is now so heads and shoulders above anything that SMS was able to do with it. And I can only imagine what more can be squeezed out of the engine for a future title.

I wonder would Ray tracing be possible with Madness? Even more optimization? Building on everything that AMS2 can do, but with a fresh start for a meaner, leaner AMS3, able to take the next leap? A true next-gen project, and not just a sideways step if AMS3 is forced to start over from scratch, with a possible end result similar to PMR....

I sure hope so. Outside of LMU's engine, I don't see another one that can realistically compete with what Reiza has been able to accomplish.

 

Before SMS stopped working on the Project Cars 4, rumor is they were adding the following features to the Madness Engine:
1. Ray Tracing
2. Dynamic on track debris (iRacing eventually added this)
3. Native DLSS and FSR support
4. Other quality of life updates

It's truly a shame to see what could've become of the Madness Engine. Instead it seems PMR is just struggling to catch up to where the Madness Engine was in 2017 with the release of Project Cars2. Which was almost a decade ago. Sigh!

 

Unreal Engine 5 Is Better...

 

I would definitely say that we've seen just the beginning of what Madness Engine can do. If SMS was indeed adding Ray Tracing and other features, and if Reiza is allowed to keep working on the engine, we're in for a great time.

 

We do not need AMS3. I prefer a long, long life of AMS2 development. More cars, more tracks, and the most important, more features. Starting over is pointless for me. It could make sense for Reiza financially, but I hope AMS2 makes sense instead.

 

Whatever engine Reiza chooses for a hypothetical AMS 3 (whether it be Madness, UE5, Giants, Isimotor, or even an in-house engine) in my opinion doesnt really matter. The only people who can really weigh the pros and cons factoring in all the different variables are people within the simracing industry, not us. They're the ones who have all the needed context to make the best decision for their respective sims. We can disagree/make fun of said decision all we want but that doesnt change the fact we don't have all the information to judge that choice in a meaningful way outside of game bad = engine bad.

The whole story of AMS 2's development is proof of how the simracing community can be wrong about this sort of thing. In the first few years of AMS 2's existence it was widely considered that the choice of going with the ME was a mistake, but that opinion has become more and more niche over time. Why? Because it is very clear that AMS 2 is successful even over half of a decade after it's release so it's hard to call the choice of using the ME a "mistake" in good faith. we thought it was a bad idea, we were wrong, and now AMS 2 is considered one of the best racing sims on the market.

What matters more than anything else is if the devs can create the sim they want to create using that engine and thats something only the devs will know. We can have our opinions sure, but for the vast, vaaaast majority of us those opinions are not well informed, closer to a guess than anything else.

 

We don't need AMS2, they could continued to develop AMS1, you'd have an almost perfect racing simulator.

 

I'd agree to an extent....in some ways a dev team is a bigger factor than a game engine

 

Honestly why even worry about the what ifs of a future that’s not even close .

 

From how I understood Renato's 2026 roadmap blog they were at the point of deciding where they want to head atm. And they decided to increase the team size to focus further on AMS2 with tons of requested features and more support for custom content like the recent BOP possibilities.

Honestly they managed to tune the Madness engine to respectable proper sim physics over the last 1.5 years. I can totally see them using all that knowledge they gathered over time to create something new in the distant future instead of sticking to a licensed sim engine that comes with their heavy limitations.

But in the end such a decision has so many complex things to look into that it's impossible to judge as a player since we don't know about the development workflows, licensing models and costs, things much more important than what we see. I trust Reiza with whatever they do for the future, but honestly I guess AMS3 is still many years away with how packed the roadmap für AMS2 still is. So I'm much more excited for what they are cooking for us with that

Also Rennsport easily proofs that UE5 doesn't mean your game will actually look better than AMS2....

 

IMHO, the more interesting question is not a highly hypothetical AMS 3 (which I think will never happen and not currently relevant), but more if Reiza has the rights to use the Madness Engine for other games. Imagine a standalone Rally spinoff for example (also highly hypothetical).

 

There's no guarantees that Reiza would even want to make another sim after AMS2, if they do everything they want here, not sure what their motivation would be.
Renato might have a pile of money that he wants to retire with and get away from all the stress and frustration.

 

^This! Just keep adding tracks and we'll keep buying the content and supporting the development of the game. There are soooooooo many tracks that could be added to the game over time. This can help fund the development of the game for a long long time.

Less work for the Devs to have to learn a new sim engine. I mean just look at how much Kunos is struggling with the AC Evo. Look at Straight4 struggling with PMR. Making a new engine from scratch isn't easy. Then fine tuning that engine and learning the ins and outs is another challenge. Let's be honest, it took Reiza almost 6 years to get a point (V1.7) where the physics/tire model feels natural/intuitive.

Those of us that came from the PCars2/3 universe already knew how good ME was. We also quickly realized Reiza was still learning the in and outs of the ME which took time. But yea if you came for AMS1 I can see how you would've thought ME was a mistake.

 

I've always known Reiza using ME was a genius move, compared to anything possible with AMS1. Native VR support, built in weather, track evolution, beautiful graphics, an advanced tire model - all built it, out-of-the-box ready to go. Reiza just perfected it's use.

 

There's one major issue with a new project - AMS3 - starting, and this has been raised in recent months.

The licence agreements that exist for AMS2 are unlikely to be transferable to a new product, which means that new agreements will need to be negotiated, and more money spent.

Creating a new game would genuinely be an extremely costly exercise and we could be back at square one (or worse) in terms of base-game content, especially with things such as the F1 licences that are going to see the Mclarens removed from future game sales.

I would rather see AMS2 go the way of World of Warcraft. It's been around since 2004 and has been continually upgraded and improved (depending on your personal point of view).

 

About graphics you right but physics you have yo go back to AMS1, till nowadays the best I experience besides RF2

 

With the right custom FFB and a well-tuned high-end Direct Drive wheel, I disagree. I prefer the driving feel and physics of AMS2 in every respect.

 

Honestly, I used to like RF2 but having gone back to it a few months ago it just didn't seem to feel as good as I remembered it being. I absolutely prefer how AMS2 feels these days in terms of being connected to the vehicle and the road.

But everyone's mileage varies - some people swear by using custom FFB, whereas I actually prefer the built-in ones (and was using the Default instead of Default+ for quite a long time too as that was my preference).

My opinion doesn't change though, that all racing sims whilst feeling different still teach transferable skills whereby it's just a case of if you're switching it up, you just need to spend a bit of time adjusting to the new sim and you should be up to speed relatively quickly. That's certainly been my experience.

 

What would be the point of AMS3 ? It would have a lot less content, a lot less features, likely have base content the exact same AMS2 had ... why bother ?? AMS2 has so many cars and tracks that even in 4 years of playing it i have STILL not gotten around to drive all car/track combos.

Only reason i would have a possible interest in AMS3 would be if it focused on racing that is not in AMS2. Like if it was all about historic 1950 - 1970 racing content. But good luck with that, the budget for that stuff would have to be insane.

 

I'm not suggesting dumping AMS2 anytime soon. But at some point, a true next-gen sim would be welcome. What are some things that a fresh start could bring?

AI with the same physics as the player, while maintaining a high AI count - at least 47
Ray tracing lighting graphics
and who knows what else..