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Multiplayer - What about your promise Reiza?

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Robert Gerke, Jul 25, 2021.

  1. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    We often get comments such as “when are you improving multiplayer”, or “when are you fixing the bugs” in social media posts and here on the forum - unfortunately as much as I’d like to give clear answers, it’s not possible because they are not clear questions - they also seem to ignore the fact we have been improving multiplayer components directly or indirectly, and we do fix every and all bugs we manage to identify the source of for every one of these months you mentioned.

    So my question to you Robert then is, what is it that makes AMS2 unsuitable for league racing in your view? Because while we know of some common feature requests and improvements (and do plan to deliver on a few of them already , such as the Multiplayer Rating Sytem we already confirmed is coming before the end of the year), we aren’t aware of problems so grave that would stop you from running a league - we do run 3 multiplayer tests in Beta every week, and other than the odd server issue or problem with some new feature or content, they run pretty smoothly with plenty acceptable, if not perfect netcode.

    So my question to you and others that have similar enquiries then is, what makes AMS2 unsuitable for league racing from your perspective? Let’s be specific and then we can try give you specific answers :)
     
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  2. Spie

    Spie New Member Reiza Backer

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    I think the main thing that is missing is dedicated server controls for the admin, such as restarting a session, forwarding sessions etc. I think also in one instance our admin crashed out of the game, and when he got back he wasn't admin anymore. I think if these simple admin controls existed, it is pretty much good to go for league racing, and even social racing. In fact some of these admin controls are more important for social racing (ie. if someones game/wheel has an issue, we can just restart session, wait for them to get back, and then forward to a race. It is a shame now that we have to restart the server, and lose all the quali times and places to let them back in if this happens).

    Everything else is pretty good now, netcode seems pretty solid.
     
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  3. DaWorstPlaya

    DaWorstPlaya Active Member

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    Here is what I have seen so far running a multiplayer league on a DS:
    1. Finishing lap error where if the leader crosses the finish before the timer expires but everyone else crosses the finish AFTER the timer expires. The leader has to do 1 extra lap compared to everyone else. This actually happened and it showed that leader finished a lap up on everyone during a timed race.
    2. Inability to set the extra race timer after the leader crosses the finish line and method of finish, instead of an arbitrary one (90sec timer I believe). That way people who are few laps down can have some extra time to battle it out and cross the finish line before their race session ends. Allow people to race and once that timer reaches 0, don't end the race until the last car crosses the finish line.
    3. Inability to seperate the gridding for multiclass race. Right now the DS just mixes cars of different classes in the grid based on their actualy quali times instead of giving the option to seperate them in grid by class. This can lead to a lot of chaos during starts due to the difference in straight line speed.
    4. Inability to set reverse grid races based on the result of the 1st race.
    5. Inability to limit the tuning on cars on the DS server, so players can at least change tire pressures and brake bias and a few other things the admin allows but not other settings. etc.
    6. Ability to join back in a race and start from the pits, if you get disconnected during a race. This is a huge one, IMHO.

    I understand Reiza is a small team and they are working very hard to polish AMS2. But I too can't help but feel a little disappointed or forgotten or whatever you want to call it, when I look at the change logs and don't see as many multiplayer updates and enhancements. The only time I play AMS2 is during multiplayer league matches but I just don't see as many improvements coming down the multiplayer pipeline as I do the single player pipeline that I barely even touch. So I understand the frustration of the OP.
     
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  4. Redvaliant

    Redvaliant New Member

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    I take part in a regular league race each week as well as several outing on the public servers, and I have seen many issues with the multiplayer in those races. Our league has players from Europe, Nth America and the Sthn Hemisphere and warping and lag are real issues. High pings obviously don't help, but even cars from the UK have been warping and lagging during races. It could be individual PC setups or broadband at fault but it is an ongoing issue for us. Generally, the public server races are better, but I've had game crashes and freezes when changing from one session to the next with a field of about 18 cars on the server. I feel the netcode is not as reliable or stable as say, rF2, and I really look forward to any improvement in the multiplayer experience in the next updates.
     
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  5. chonk

    chonk Active Member

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    I think this post from @sgsfabiano makes some great suggestions as well...hope you don't mind me posting it here as well.

     
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  6. Robert Gerke

    Robert Gerke Member Reiza Backer

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    Hello Renato, thank you for your answer.
    You ask what I mean specifically and what we miss?
    Sorry, but hopefully you've been following the MP thread closely for the past 18 months, haven't you?

    https://forum.reizastudios.com/threads/ams2-beta-multiplayer-feedback-reports.9127/

    There you will find all reported errors and requests and suggestions.

    As MP simracers, we expect that the many "small" things will be consistently worked on and improved by you every week!

    No more and no less.

    Why did you stop investing in the MP a long time ago, that is what many here in our league and MP community are asking?

    In short, what have we wanted for a long time? You developers have known that for a long time, that's why we've been mourning here for 1.5 years.

    Summarized:

    The AMS2 as a League suitable
    multiplayer simracer, reaches the level of
    AMS1, iRacing, AC, RRE, and ACC, at least halfway!

    Here Specifically, just a few things that we always long for from the beginning.

    • a user-friendly tool to easily create and configure a dedicated server for admins with a real user interface without having to enter parameters or numbers and programming lines
    • a real TV tool for directors and commentators. Without this tool there would be no real demanding league race broadcasts
    • Automatic exchange of custom liveries when entering the server, without annoying downloading and adding custom lieveries to folders
    • Consistent further development and optimization of the movements of the vehicles in the MP. They tremble, stutter and look anything but not realistic driving vehicles. Especially when the pings are high. So we have been demanding and asking for a long time to continuously improve the netcode, the scanning of the vehicle positions and the visual representation. Did you even start with it? Check out iR or RRE or ACC. It should look just as realistic and the vehicles should move in multiplayer mode. Even with pings from 30 to 100.
    • Slider from 0 -100% to adjust how strong the damage is
    • Setting option for how long it takes from qualifying to the race from the garage before the race starts. Slider in seconds 0 - 600 sec. as an an example
    And so many other little things that are simply missing! To be able to use AMS2 as a professional league suitable racer.

    Just take a look at all the options for settings and refinements that all other Sinreacing titles provide for League-Sport, then you will know what we need.

    At the end just a few more questions for you Renato ...

    What is your claim to a modern simracer in MP mode? What are you currently missing, what all different Sims have? In which areas do you really want to improve and work intensively and meticulously in detail?

    It would be enough for me at the beginning if I read at least a little step in the changlog every week about how you are improving the MP. But I haven't read anything for over a year and that's exactly what demoralizes us.

    Greetings Rob

    PS:
    Sorry, my translator English. If I were able to speak English as well as German, I would be much better able to put it into words and explain what I mean.
     
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  7. Juan Reinoso

    Juan Reinoso Doctor SimRacing Reiza Backer

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    Please improve this!!!

    Seeing cars shaking and floating even with very low ping ruins the sens of realism completely

    Also the netcode isn't friendly at all having close battles...
     
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  8. DaVeX

    DaVeX AMSUnofficial Staff Reiza Backer

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    Probably this explains why this post sound quite perentory and not really friedly...

    In order to reply to you and @Juan Reinoso I think the main issue with MP is how it works on its core, the dedi isn't really user friendly and the P2P nature doesn't help too. While I understand the game needs to sync a lot of data (weather, track temps, etc etc) on the other hand I understand the users frustration whit the outcome of this choice (keep in mind this is how SMS developed it).

    I agree MP needs a ton of work but I am not really focusing on the ranking system or license one, I am more worried about the lack of basic features for server admins (a dedi working like the AMS one would be a dream) and the netcode issues, hope Reiza will fix it but I wouldn't say they are neglecting it, even we can see how messy the dedi is (and we don't know a single line of the code) so I can figure how can be a huge task for the Reiza guys too and this would explain their silence, they are still working on it and when something will be ready and working as intended they will announce it.
     
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  9. roszman

    roszman Member

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    Deleted, sorry didn't want to interrupt.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
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  10. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    Thank you for the feedback gentlemen - I´d just like to highlight that the relative absence of multiplayer notes (itself an arguable claim given the number of UI developments done on the Multiplayer side of things, performance adjustments & bug fixes contributing to improved multiplayer stability in recent updates) does not mean other more structural changes are not being targetted. just that some of what´s being requested involves considerable engineering work, and to the extent these are viable they do take longer to be delivered - not everything can be achieved in the timespan of a few months.

    The only "promise" we have made is to continue pushing to deliver these improvements to the extent that we are able - there is no promise on a timeline for new features nor how satified you may be with their results vis-a-vis other sims, some of which have different priorities and more restricted scope than we have with AMS2. I have in fact stated a few times that while I hope that will not be the case, it may be that Multiplayer is not AMS2´ strongest point even when all is said and done - that is very different to it not being usable, and we do expect to continue to bridge these gaps as we continue to advance what is still a very long development road ahead.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021
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  11. sgsfabiano

    sgsfabiano Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    The main issue that happened to all leagues I've joined in was the very same at every single race: too many drivers being randomly disconnected from the server before the race start or rarely shortly after. The feeling of mass frustration and hate towards the game was pretty strong. Sure it was a huge headache to the league managers to handle those situations.

    That is why session restart, grid customization and driver reconnecting (ie: starting from the pits, or being able to connect to the race before the race starts, but after qualifying) is so needed.

    I've since then stopped racing in leagues due to real life commitments, so my experience with AMS2 leagues might be obsolete.
     
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  12. toniware

    toniware Greyhat DWORD Developer

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    i dont want to be 'that' guy, but other games hire developers exclusively to work on the MP portion of the game.
    similiar to how people here like to say that more DLCs doesnt hinder the core code developement as 3d artist have nothing todo with coding anyways.

    getting additional help and someone to only focus on improving the mp portion of the game could result in significant improvements, if you can afford that ofc.

    i think giving developers a "we need this feature" doesnt really work, i think the better approach is to tell them whats wrong and have them figure it out themselves (how to combat the issue).
    simply because most of us dont see what else is happening in the engine, so telling them to fix A might break multiple other things, so if they come up with their own way, it certainly will work how they expected.

    to name a few things that need improvement in regards to driving with/around other people.
    generally speaking it seems like regardless of the ping others display, they seem to much higher than in other games.
    eg. my ping to EU servers usually hovers around 30-50ms, while in ams2 the ping averages near or above 100ms, even to reallife friends who live just down the road.
    the vehicle position seems to be extrapolated artificially, often resulting in one getting hit, while the other person didnt even get close

    blue car got hit there and was very angry about me "purposely" hitting him


    on another note, i am not sure if i am the only one, but i really dislike the nametags above the cars.
    i'd rather have a very simple nametag with high contrast(acc has one but its not perfect either) rather than this huge box of information that i cant even read in VR(aspecially while driving on the limit).

    as i mentioned in other threads months back, i think the way the lobby system works atm, is very restrictive for people who just want to hop on and drive, it leaves u looking at the server browser with most servers being in a state where u cant join even tho theres prolly enough time to join and enough space. but i assume a "join whenever u want" option is just not possible with how the lobby stuff works. i often find myself seeing 10servers with people on it, but i cant join any, and tbh i dont want to join a 30min practice, 30min qualy server for a 5lap race.
     
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  13. Robert Gerke

    Robert Gerke Member Reiza Backer

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    "I have in fact stated a few times that while I hope that will not be the case, it may be that Multiplayer is not AMS2´ strongest point even when all is said and done - that is very different to it not being usable, and we do expect to continue to bridge these gaps as we continue to advance what is still a very long development road ahead."

    Thank you Renato. I think these are the key statements up here.

    I (we have) had this fear since pCars2, when we begged SMS for 2 years to introduce important things and improve them. Unfortunately, almost nothing of this was implemented in the end.

    If we write so openly, I would be happy that you might give an outlook on some details, what you think is feasible and what less.

    Because I have to make a decision for myself whether we will really wait until AMS2 Online is suitable for the league, or whether we will just tick it off.

    Because as hard as the truth is, compared to all other simulations, the MP mode of AMS2 is unfortunately currently the weakest. If you compare the features and setting options, and especially the movements of the vehicles on the track (unnatural moving, trembling and jumping)

    One thing should never be underestimated. Simulations live from a well thought-out and detailed MP mode and from league suitability. In my opinion, that would drive AMS2 up extremely in terms of sales figures.

    I hope that we will continue to have a recurring, honest discussion here.

    Thank you Renato!

    PS: Sorry I'm heartbroken for the poor English. I think what I write here reads horribly. Grrrrrr :(
     
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  14. SaxOhare

    SaxOhare Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Not really adding to

     
  15. toniware

    toniware Greyhat DWORD Developer

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    i agree, i find myself hopping on ams2 every now and then for a singleplayer race, but later want to do a mp race, but cant find any, so i just turn it off and do something else.
    i race scome league races every now and then if i find time for them, but i am just missing the casual races, which i used todo in LFS or assetto corsa 1, where u just hop on and race for a bit.

    and right now its just a question if u want to load up ams2 and hope a decent lobby is available that u can actually join. or just hop onto a different game and find a server right away


    and to be honest, i dont even think people want a safety rating system. like ye its a cool feature, but whats the point if u are mainly driving alone anyways
     
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  16. stealthradek

    stealthradek Active Member

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    @Robert Gerke - having been involved in shaping few professional leagues myself I'd suggest avoiding titles that are under heavy development for serious league purposes. For now of course.

    I'd definitely give it some visibility within community, but wouldn't use it as a consistent title just yet. A small, informal league for fun - of course, but you'll give yourself a lot of headaches when using software that's still heavily tinkered under the hood and very unfinished roadmap when trying to run a league and still look professional.

    The few reasons are for example:
    1. Physics changes, often affecting setups, BOP etc. Imagine this happening prior to the race
    2. Bugs. While I'm sure a lot of attention is given to iron as much as possible there's still a fair chance of something emerging unexpectedly. You don't want that.
    3. New features being introduced that may affect gameplay and on-track rules which may require rewriting your rules to match. Again, not ideal to happen on raceday.
    My suggestion would be to run main races in your league using some other title, unless you have community that understands the "work in progress" AMS2 state. After reading that it didn't ended up well previously I would stick to something that currently works with no major headaches for you.

    Meanwhile keep monitoring AMS2 until it reaches the state it can be adopted with satisfactory results within your league. I definitely wouldn't tick it off completely.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021
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  17. moneypizzle

    moneypizzle Member

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    I straight up wonder if any Reiza dev ever sets foot in the multipayer :D

    I think it's crazy neither Kunos, Pcars nor Reiza embraces/engages the community to build/organise things inside the game. I mean just look at AC1 and AMS1 modding communities and how they play to this day. Or @toniware here who has improved on the spotter/radar like 10x and it just gets neglected. Stuff like that is invaluable for general racing and the multiplayer.:eek:

    BTW solely pushing DLC's is a losing/never ending battle when it comes to the longevity of a game imo. Also still waiting for historic SPA, I thought I paid for. :whistle:
     
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  18. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence German localization/Testing Staff Member Reiza Backer

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    Yes.
     
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  19. kkdrummer

    kkdrummer Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Every wk, 3 times a wk.
     
  20. dryheat94

    dryheat94 Member

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    When are we going to see the Historic Spa we paid for many months ago? I know it got delayed but I can't recall the release schedule on it.
     

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