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Nitpicking about words and stuff

Discussion in 'Automobilista - General Discussion' started by Kakkela, Mar 11, 2016.

  1. Kakkela

    Kakkela New Member Reiza Backer

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    So the most sensationalist "simracing news" -blog PRC.net posted this:
    Reader Submission #85 – One Free Game Too Many?
    And screenshot for people that don't want to give him clicks:
    http://i.imgur.com/LVKeL3g.png

    He used misleading screenshot at the end, but otherwise it makes sense.
    I'll TL;DR some, for example 75$ perk got me:

    • Beta of SCE/AMS + Reiza2017
    • SCE + FT2013 + Reiza2017
    • AMS&DLCs
    Later you guys stated that AMS will be free for everybody that had SCE on their steam account before January 6th.

    So how does this mean we are only entitled to one AMS? I can see why someone could think that listing AMS&DLCs as it's own point on perks that already had SCE makes things more clear. In reality it has totally different meaning. I guess the guy from article did message Simioni via PM, but I think this should be talked in public to not cause any more confusion after people read that article.
     
  2. P*Funk

    P*Funk Active Member

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    Perhaps because everyone is assuming that the promise was for independent game keys when in actual fact you can easily argue they promised you access to the product instead of giving you a new key for both overlapping promises.

    From my cursory reading I think this is a case of expectation colouring judgment. People expect that because when you buy multiple versions of something you get multiple keys, but this wasn't a purchase, it was a perk. Basically Reiza was giving stuff away for free and being generous and someone tried to rules lawyer their way into a technical free copy so they could basically get even more free stuff from the most generous developer around.

    Then we get good old PRC to sensationalize the story and take the controversial side of things, of course.

    I usually look down on the use of this rhetoric by internet people but in this case I may make an exception and say that this definitely was a case of entitlement. I'm particularly amused by the way the refund and the rescinded perks was descruved as being booted when he asked of that as well.

    I think its just silly personally. Tempest in an e-pot.
     
  3. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    Firstly, this is not a place this is even supposed be discussed - if you are a campaign participant we have a forum to discuss such topics with campaign participants - it is not relevant to non-campaign backers, so your request for clarification is misplaced. I´ll take the bite though - it might send an useful message in order to avoid further aggravation, both for ourselves and people who may feel and act like the gentleman in question here.

    The guy was a lvl1 backer. When we ran the campaign, this granted a access to Reiza51 (the private forum I just mentioned above). That was that:

    $10 USD
    Level 1
    Earns: -Dev forum access.


    When we later decided to develop AMS, that (along with its future paid DLCs) got added to the package for ALL levels. Nowhere however was it stated a lvl1 backer would get an EXTRA copy of AMS if he already had SCE. This was in case you didn´t own SCE (which you might very well have not), and threw in a tenner just because you found the campaign interesting - then you get AMS + DLCs, even though again at the time of the campaign this was not part of the deal. Even if you already owned SCE (and thus already had granted your AMS copy), the "+DLCs" part of it is to eventually prove great value for your $10 contribution.

    There´s not much room for confusion here, unless you omit the chronology of facts and the level of the backer in question, which the "article" obviously conveniently does - the guy didn´t make a purchase, he made a contribution for a very specific and limited perk. This does not relate to other levels of contribution which do indeed warrant extra copies (if the backer did elect for that option).

    Mind you - if the guy in question hadn´t thrown a temper tantrum after simply being asked to confirm whether he had already AMS added to his library, I might even have given him another copy just to keep him happy and satisfied that he chose to contribute, as I have done several times before, not least because I can appreciate things got a bit confusing along the way. The sense of entitlement and attitude displayed for what was his own misunderstanding is what led to him being pointed to the door.

    I said before a few times already and will say again - we´re a small shop, doing small products for a small niche of like-minded enthusiasts. I´m happy to keep it that way and we are not necessarily looking for business from people who aren´t in that group. I´m getting increasingly bored of the aggravation a tiny but very obnoxious minority of users feel entitled to give us for spending $10-50 or whatever in a game, and also bemused there are still people capable of taking that clickbait fake controversy generator bot as credible reading - and this little nugget they´re welcome to copy&paste at will :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
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  4. P*Funk

    P*Funk Active Member

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    I am always impressed by your candor and honesty Renato. No PR speak BS but at the same time you don't end up looking like a savage as some others do.
     
  5. Kakkela

    Kakkela New Member Reiza Backer

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    Impressive reply indeed. I just want to point out that without any context "contributing to campaign" doesn't really imply any perk level. I would probably write that I contributed to it myself even though in reality I purchased three games.

    Still the original question stands, if he had used different mail / steam accounts for old SCE and Campaign he would have gotten two AMS?

    It isn't that clearly stated which posts should be where, so should this thread be under this forum in
    Automobilista - Beta & Development or on the RD forum? And could you move it to right place?
     
  6. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    Nah that´s fine, generally if it´s campaign related we should post it in Reiza 51 (in here as in your link, not in RD as the forums have moved). I do not have a problem discussing this one openly though for the reasons stated.

    If he´d used a different email there would have been no difference - we did not send out AMS keys to lvl1 backers, the few who were lacking from not having SCE previously had it handed manually (everyone from lvl2 & up had been distributed Beta keys and thus also AMS release automatically). If he had told us he did not have AMS, he might have gotten a key he was not entitled to (even though in this case it was clear he already retrieved his SCE Steam key and thus AMS). If he had just told he had one and asked whether it was possible to have another, he might also have gotten it. It´s 77 people who contributed $10 each - we´re not going to develop a system to audit them, the honor system seemed perfectly suitable and it has worked out well for the other 76 so far.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
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  7. Kakkela

    Kakkela New Member Reiza Backer

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    But think about it this way, someone may already have had SCE and bought into Campaign to get Reiza2017 (let's not limit our examples to just this one particular guy and tier) He then get's beta for AMS and later AMS from campaign.
    Then you guys tell to the public that all SCE owners will get AMS. This guy now kind of should have 2x AMS, no? (One from campaign with DLCs and one without from SCE "promotion")
    The one without DLCs could be given to friend or relative to get them hooked and possibly to bring new customers to you.
     
  8. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    Im not sure I follow your argument - AMS is basically the collection of updates we proposed for SCE (and what was being funded with the campaign to begin with), bundled up with SCE, further enhanced, rebranded and released as a standalone in AMS. This was always going to be free for all SCE owners as originally proposed, it was not exclusive to campaign backers, and they knew that going in (in fact backers generally strongly supported keeping AMS free to SCE owners, even though they were the ones paying for the developments). Keep in mind this was not a new product then, but an update from the perspective of people who participated in the campaign or indeed had SCE up to Jan 6th (even if they still technically have 2 products now with both SCE & AMS)

    Without going into the specifics of every single backing level and the variations within (you can analyse those yourself by comparing the original levels vs the updated ones including AMS), generally speaking, all backing levels got an extra for their contribution with the formulation of AMS - if they had elected for a copy of SCE (first or extra), they got that + AMS + DLCs. If they elected for Reiza2017, they still get AMS + DLCs. If they didnt even had SCE and just threw in $10, they still get AMS + DLCs... Whichever way you cut it there were no subtractions, only upgrades..

    If you´re really pushing you might say the balance of value between the levels might have shifted a bit with these upgrades, but generally when everyone is getting extras for their investment, they tend to be satisfied :) And it appears the vast majority is.

    Those who somehow still managed to be unhappy were offered a very large window to get a refund (and the guy who originated this topic had it exceptionally extended to him despite no valid reason whatsoever). So really, I tend to feel we covered all bases.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
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  9. Alessandro Greghi

    Alessandro Greghi New Member Reiza Backer

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    I am in your list (i owned SCE, but not FT before being a indiegogo campaign backer)

    Reiza give me a second key for SCE (and one key for FT) that i gifted to a friend, that now own a copy of automobilista + dlc (like me with my original key).

    All good in my opinion :D
     

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