Official General AI Comments & Discussion Topic

Is it just me, or are the AIs at Virginia International Raceway a bit too rough? Been trying to play with GT and Lmdh cars with skill level 105 % on the "Full Course". With GT cars, at sector 1 it is fine, sector 2 gets a bit tough but around the Hog Pen(final corners), the AIs get a slight advantage. My best lap time tends to be just 0,5 seconds faster than the fastest AI. But I can't even match the AIs with Lmdh cars.

 

@NedimMehmedovic The combination of AI in prototypes and GTs is problematic. Every time I've tried these combinations (on any track) has been disastrous. Although it's not my favorite discipline, I recently raced at VIR with GT3 (G1 + G2: AI 112%/Medium) and it was very enjoyable (watch the video on YT if you're interested). The point where I noticed some problems (especially with the Porsches) was in the "Snake." In the "Hog Pen," they are indeed better, but this happens on any track; in some areas they are faster while in others, slower.

 

You got a good point. But Virginia just feels a bit rough with the AIs. The third sector is now the main concern but as mentioned before, they appear through Hog Pen.

 

Hi all,

after a break of several weeks from AMS2, the excellent 2012 season pack for the F-Reiza pulled me back in and I have to say, that after the latest game patches, racing the AI is quite a bit more enjoyable for me. The interlocking between human and AI cars is now clearly reduced and the downforce loss while in the state of yaw feels far more realistic.

However the pitstop strategy of the AI still ruins every race that lasts longer as one stint.

In all the races I have done, the AI needs far more pitstops to get to the end. The higher the tyre wear multiplicator, the worse it gets. To clarify, this happens with the skinpack installed as well as in a default / unmodded game. The stint length and pit stop counts are the same.

Here is an example of my latest 40% race in Montréal, 28 laps in total. I used a tyre wear multiplicator of x3. At the start of the race, every car including mine is on soft tyres.

After 6 laps, the AI (all of them) pit for the first time. By that time, I also feel a loss of grip in the softs, so a pitstop is plausible, but I extend to lap 10 without problems.

Two laps later (lap 12) the AI pits again. So the first two stints for them last 6 laps both.

After those two short stints, they then do a longer one – exactly twice as long, for 12 laps. So, if you did count along, that makes 24 of 28 laps, so they go for another set of fresh tyres to complete the race. They stopped three times.

Meanwhile, myself, having pitted on lap 10 and taken a set of mediums, have no problem whatsoever going to the end. After 18 laps (x3) the mediums still have 80% life in them.


Pitstop overview
AI: Lap 6, Lap 12, Lap 24
Me: Lap 10 (Soft to Medium)


I guess the AI simulates two stints on softs, then one on medium, although not shown in tyre color and then goes for another set of softs. This last pitstop breaks the immersion and leads to the huge time gap, because before that, they could counter my strategy on the softer tyre and after that keeping up on the longer (medium?) stint.

So, to get this right, the AI should extend their stints a bit to not have to pit again so late in the race. And on the flipside, I think the medium tyre on the player car lasts too long and should be more worn after 18 (x3) laps, considering how sensitive those Pirelli tyres were in reality.


I usually drive F1 and Indycars in AMS2, so can’t say much about the other cars, but these problems are seen in all the classes I tried, that use tyres that don’t last the whole race. With authentic (x1) tyre wear, it needs longer races to experience those, but in the end, the AI will always have worse tyre wear and needs more pitstops than the player.


I hope, this can be looked at so we can have longer races with the AI on a similar level.

Thanks for reading!

 

General AI observations v1.6.7;

• When a leading AI makes a mistake the AI behind it sometimes "follow" that path so you end up with a train of AI taking very wide turns around corners, it's like they're trying to remain behind the AI in front but they're all way off the racing line for no reason whatsoever.
• With respect to that AI mistakes don't slow the AI down enough, I've seen AI run wide and remain on the tarmac but they're still able to take the corner at full speed, when in reality they'd scrub off a lot of speed. I've also seen AI fiercely snap right & left but again no time speed or time loss, that's not to say this happens all the time though as conversely I have seen AI run wide and loose speed/time.
• AI on the inside of the turns, even with Aggression set to Max, yield that position far too easily especially on slower corners. If I'm on the outside and the AI is directly alongside me they will brake hard allowing me to over take around the outside even though I'm going slower than I would at the apex, where in reality that would never happen (unless under a Blue Flag scenario).
• The sudden physics wobbling of AI has improved but it's still there, more apparent when they pull out of an AI slipstream they visually "snap" to the right/left all the while maintaining speed.
• "Trains" of AI is still a thing, whereby there's a group of AI that just won't split apart and this slows them all down, whilst it's cool to see every now and then I see this a lot recently.
• I've mentioned "stickiness" with AI collisions before, it's still an unfortunate issue.
• On the topic of collisions, when it's "AI on AI" this can cause a CPU spike and sudden loss of FPS, especially noticeable in VR where any drop <90 is immediately noticeable. I've seen these drops quite often with large grids (47 etc) and couldn't figure out why, until I saw some AI on AI collisions then suddenly the FPS dropped momentarily. Only for a second but it's enough to be a worry, other than that it's smooth running.

 

Hi,

thanks for sharing your experience — I wasn’t aware of this pitstop strategy issue before, but it seems the problem mainly appears when using a tyre wear multiplier such as x3. From my tests, I would recommend not using the multiplier and keeping it at x1: even in shorter races of 30–45 minutes, the AI tyre strategy works reasonably well.

With the wear set to x1, you can still make sure that tyre changes happen by enabling the mandatory 4-tyre change option, which AMS2 thankfully allows us to do.

That said, in my opinion there is actually a bigger problem than AI tyre strategy: the difference between human lap times and AI lap times with full fuel tanks. From what I have observed, human drivers are penalised more heavily by fuel load than the AI.

• On short 30 min races, you don’t really notice the effect.
• But in longer races, fuel load becomes decisive: the AI seems much less affected than the player when starting with a heavy car.
• For example, with the F-Reiza you need around 210 L to cover 300 km — carrying that much fuel for two-thirds of the race is almost impossible for the human player, while the AI copes better. Even with 105 L for 150 km, the first half of the race is very difficult, and although your lap times improve later as the tank empties, the time lost at the start is insurmountable.

So, while tyre strategy could certainly be improved, I would encourage Reiza to focus on this fuel load impact imbalance between human and AI. I also know Reiza likes data-driven feedback, so I’d be happy to provide detailed lap time comparisons to support this observation.

 

Hi Alain,
thanks for the response and for all your great season packs of course.

You're absolutely right, the x3 multiplier exaggerates the problem, but it is there with x1 as well. I started the 2012 championship with authentic tyre wear, 40% race distance, and the AI always had to do an extra pitstop at the end of the race. Nothing to do with your pack, as I said, it's the same with a vanilla AMS2.

Yes, that is correct, but in the case of the F-Reiza there is already a mandatory pitstop with tyre change enabled by the rules.

I wanted to concentrate on one issue, that hasn't been discussed often, but oh yes, that is one of the big ones I agree. Not much sense, doing a full race under those conditions.

And there still are much more nuisances:

• Seemingly no AI tyre wear, unless they have to extend their stint. Then the last laps before the stop are noticeably slower.
• AI performance and grip boost when close behind the player (and being extra slow when in front) leading to ridiculous dives into fast corners and often a crash
• Slipstream + DRS effect much too strong
• AI won't overtake on the straight, even when I drive 100+ kph slower, instead is glued to my rear
• Too much longitudinal grip (better acceleration and braking capability in comparison to the player, especially with worn tyres and in the aforementioned "boost-mode")
• The well known AI trains

Who knows when or if these will be dealt with. Here's me hoping for the best.

 

@Alain Fry The AI has been improving significantly, but I have to agree with the points mentioned above. Fuel weight has very little impact on the AI, nor does tire wear, especially considering Formula 1s use soft compounds and wear much faster. Under the blue flag, the AI makes things much easier, but they seem to forget they're backmarkers as soon as you pass them and resume their fight. They also suffer very little or lose time when their wheels are off the track or when they're fighting for position.

At this point I have a different opinion, below is a small example.

Indeed, some combinations can still be more problematic, while others can be quite fun.

 

I think this might be a bad example, because from my experience the AI is ridiculously fast on the main straight at this specific track. In every class, with slipstream, I cannot keep up with AI on the same car as me, even in the rare occasions I get a great exit out of the final corner.
Interestingly, this is the opposite problem that I have on most other car-track combinations, which is the AI being too slow on the straights (as MaCross mentioned above, it seems that, in general, DRS and slipstream are much stronger for the player than for the AI, very noticeable in the F-Reiza, F-Ultimate, F-Retro Gen2 and most, if not all F-Classics)

 

Unfortunately, AI still do their silly lateral moves under braking when player is about to overtake.
They also still drive side by side for ages without overtaking each others, just blocking the whole track.

 

So I tried Monza with a full GT3 grid on 110 % difficulty. This track sadly is a little cursed with these AI annoyances:
The AIs have way more grip through both the Lesmo corners. They also tend to be way faster out of the Ascari Chicane. This issue is far worser with faster cars(especially F1 cars)
Notice the huge differences between my time in S2 and the AIs that are taking the complex like aliens

 

There is simply no AI that runs on realistic lap simulations; they all use simplified physics. Naturally, it's hard to incorporate tire physics, which means there can't be true tire wear or lap time differences. The weight of fuel also cannot affect the AI's lap times. Even if it does, as in ACC, it's just a non-physical scripted calculation. Although LMU doesn’t have this feature either, it allows you to manually adjust the fuel multiplier in the SETTING file to specifically alter the AI’s fuel consumption and fine-tune lap times based on difficulty settings, helping you find a competitive group of opponents for your endurance races.

In short, I don’t think we need to be too demanding about this, as no simulator currently enables the AI to use the same complex physics as players. The priority is to ensure that the AI makes reasonable pit stops, changes tires promptly in response to weather changes, and maintains roughly similar total race times, leaving some room for strategy. This alone is enough to provide players with an excellent race experience.

 

I've been having issues with GT3 Gen 2 on both Watkins Glen short loop (w/chicane) and Sebring Club circuit at 100 AI, specifically with fuel strategy. I'm usually running a 90 minute race with 3x fuel consumption to force multiple pits over the length of the race.

For some reason, I am unable to keep up with the AI on fuel usage. Even when I qualify in first and take a sizeable lead, I am unable to extend my stints in the same way a few packs of the AI cars do. At Watkins Glen, I run the entire race using the Lean fuel mixture (as per the MFD) but I still have to pit for fuel at least 2 laps before any other car in the field. By the time the race ends, I've had to make 5 stops in total and cross the finish line with less than a liter remaining, but I will be down at least a full lap to the front runners (who only make 3 stops). Even when I get off to a fast start and make my first stop with a 15+ second lead, the other cars can extend the stint by 7-9 additional laps.

At the short Watkins Glen circuit, I've been able to lift and coast to get my fuel usage down into the 6.2L per lap range (per the dash displays in the cockpit view) while still maintaining a 1:09.5 per lap, but that is my absolute limit and it only buys me a single additional lap if it goes well. How do the AI drivers maintain their pace (~1:10.5-1:11 per lap) while seemingly using 40% less fuel? Is this just a quirk of using the fuel multiplier? It's a bummer to run a long session and be unable to understand how I'm burning so much more fuel than the competition. I tried watching replays of the winning cars so I could watch their dash readouts, but only the lap timing data is updated in the replay (the fuel consumption is just frozen in the replay).

 

Hi man,

i dont know what your settings are but for me i don't have this extra pit stop issue. I used to race with the following settings :







Here are my race results (F1 2012 championship, i renamed myself as Michael Schumacher)

Barcelona GP (with chicane) - 33%
i did an extra "free" pit stop because of a late SC


Hockenheim GP - 33%


Monaco GP - 33%


Montreal GP - 33%


Spa-Francorchamps - 33%


Monza GP - 50%


Kansai GP (Suzuka) - 50%

 

Formula USA Gen 3 (2k):

Although the AI often has poor entries, they can rocket out of corners, even if they go over sausage curbs. They drive as if the car had TC. Reiza might adjust the grip level for the AI.

 

All car classes:

- AI is not as affected from damage as player. With high settings, player has damage after the slightest contact, whilst AI go on driving like nothing ever happened.

- Player is much more affected by heavy fuel load as the AI. They just do not lose as much time with full tanks as human driver compared to qualifying.

This might be finally fixed with some update.

 

Obviously this varies wildly between classes, but one specific, outstandingly bad example is the F-Hightech Gen1. Just had a race with them at Cascais '88, qualified a comfortable 5th (I was driving a McLaren, behind my brazilian teamate, the two not-Williams and a german in a yellow car), before restarting, since I wanted to start last. During the first half of the race I struggled to keep up with the guys in between P12-15 driving a faster car. After undercutting most of my competition, by the end of the race, with low fuel, I was again only slower than the other top cars.

 

When driving in a pack of cars, driver in front is giving you a weird braketest before corners and does lateral moves in the braking zone (they just can not hold a line), whilst car from behind attacks like crazy and goes for a gap which just is not there. In addition, they do not care about track limits at all and go over grass like on rails.
Extremely annoying when racing open wheelers, because the attacking driver from behind then goes for your rear tyres and turns your car.
Could be finally fixed as this issue is in game since day one.

 

Formula USA Gen1/2/3:

Since a long time, AI is way too fast on ovals, beating the fastest guys in TT even with low strength.
They seem to have magic grip in all corners.
They also try to force their way through by ramming player off track, like they were blind.

This issue came up with the low downforce models. AI has super grip whilst human player has none. Was reported several times, but nothing was done about it.
Oval racing against AI remains being pointless with those cars.

 

I've again uninstalled and re-installed the game to try and get around this bug, but I'm still losing every event I race against the AI in due to the fuel usage. I just finished a 45 minute quick race at VIR in GT3 Gen 2 with the Porsche at 3x fuel consumption and I ran the race entirely in Lean fuel mixture mode. I qualified on pole more than 3 seconds clear of second position (1:44.50). I had to pit around 22 minutes into the race for fuel and at that time, I held a 27 second lead on P2. That car did not pit on the same lap and kept going for 9 more laps before it pitted (along with 9 other cars that entered the pit for fuel on the same lap). I was able to lift and coast my way to 2 additional laps on my second stint and then did a splash and dash so I could make the final two laps of the race. Despite never losing my pace for the entire event, I still finished in P13 (of 48) behind all the cars that only had to pit once and two cars who never once pitted (per the final timing screen). None of the cars in the race managed a fastest lap under 1:50 and I still got smoked

Is it a stock setup issue that has me continually burning more fuel than the field? I can find some additional lap time if I change my computer to run Rich, but then my consumption goes up even further and I'll need to pit 4 times instead of twice.