Official General AI Comments & Discussion Topic

So ever since this recent update, I can happily tell you that racing against the AIs has been in the best state ever in AMS2. The way they behave and how the new sliders function has made it better with less annoyance! But sadly, some parts are still visible even if I turn down the settings, so I will mark over the issues I found still to happen at the following track(s)

Mosport
Issue: The AIs have better handling & speed through Clayton Corner(T2)

Silverstone GP 2001
Issue: The AIs are still superior through the Becketts complex. This one you developers should know that, I have already addressed before and shown you a video on what is happening! Please iron it out by slowing the AIs down. And with BTCC coming up to this game, it will not be fun to race AIs that are better than you at a section where you do tend to lose around 0,2 seconds!

 

I’ll keep this short: Hockenheimring 1977, GT1 class, I’m driving the Panoz, 30 cars, AI settings: Skill 90, Traction Skill 0.90x, and Braking Skill 0.90x, and I’ve kept the AI aggressiveness set to Medium ever since I started playing ATM2. I didn’t change a thing there, and guess what—as soon as we hit the straights, they blow me away; even the other Panoz cars pass me like it’s nothing. Test 2: GT3 Gen 1, same settings, same result; Test 3: GT3 Gen 1, only Nissan GT-Rs, same settings, same result—they leave me in the dust on the straights. Yeah, okay, I’m using a controller; I can’t use a steering wheel right now, but that’s not the problem—I’m fast and I have good line choice. The AI is just too inconsistent on some tracks. Reiza, you’re aware of this problem that’s plagued the game for quite some time, and I know you’re trying to fix it, but I still don’t think you’re hitting the mark. It’s a shame with such exquisite content; it’s still my favorite, and I doubt that will change. And I’m not asking for easy, boring races—otherwise, I’d just play Gran Turismo. Yeah, it’s about finding that balance, and I’m not saying it’s easy. Cheers,
One thing I wanted to add is that the Nissan R390 is unbeatable with its 618 CV; none of the other rivals can keep up with it. It’s way too fast; I have to assume that’s how it was in real life. Now the AI has experienced what it feels like to be left behind. I did a short 20-minute race with the same settings, and it was way too easy with this Nissan—so much so that I won by passing 30 rivals; I’m just mentioning it as a fun fact. Is there BoP in ATM2?

 

(Skip to the horizontal line if you only want to read my report)

I had been away from simracing (which is pretty much only AMS2 for me now anyway) for several months, but I set up my trusty old G25 the other day and did two short races yesterday. This was on the Beta branch which I think still lacks the latest round of fixes and updates to the public branch, but should be the same otherwise, so I think my observations are valid either way.

First off the good, no, great: I was racing the GT1 '98 cars first and then the 2004/2005 GT1 cars after that. And I have to admit that, when it comes to pure race craft like overtaking the player and contact avoidance, the current state of the AI has succeeded my expectations of what I thought possible in AMS2. I'm gonna be honest, I didn't think we could get to this level. But from what I observed - especially considering my own mistakes - the AI was incredibly good at making clean, aggressive overtakes (often completely catching me by surprise!) as well as avoiding unnecessary contact with me, all the while being fiercely competitive. In fact, the AI is probably better at most of this stuff than the majority of humans (myself included). Haven't played all sims, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is the best AI in all of simracing - at least when it comes to these specific aspects.

Is it perfect though? No. There were one or two occasions when they did make contact, one of which I honestly think wasn't my fault at all and which resulted in me getting spun off the track. But is that part of racing? As much I as tend to curse and scream bloody murder whenever this happens, I will admit that it is. Also this is dependent on things like AI settings, track and car, so it might be different for other combinations.

In case anyone is interested in my settings:

Race 1
Preset: GT1 ('98)
Spielberg 2001
P 20 minutes / Q 15 minute / R 12 laps
AI: 92 strength, medium aggression, 95% brake and 90% throttle skill, 100% rain skill, 3x mistakes
Race weather was synched to race with 3 slots: Overcast, light rain, light clouds
Maximum number of cars
Player car: Panoz Esperante GTR

Race 2
Preset: GT Endurance 2004 (GT1, GT2, GTR2004)
Cascais
P 30 minutes / Q 15 minute / R 20 minutes
AI: 91 strength, medium aggression, 95% brake skill, 85% throttle skill, 90% rain skill, 3x mistakes
Race weather was: Real weather @default date, 2x time/weather speed
Half maximum number of cars (like 24 or 26 I think?)
Player car: Saleen S7R

________________________________________________


Anyhow, what I wanted to report is this:

AI pace balance between practice, qualifying and race sessions is still off. Also, the AI immediately reaches it best pace in P and Q sessions from the get-to - even on a green track with cold tires. Probably similar in Race sessions as well, but not to the same extent IMHO.

I used to be able to race the AI at around 94-95 strength, and suddenly I was getting absolutely destroyed by the GT1s on Spielberg 2001 in the Panoz during Practice. Or so I thought. Turns out the AI was immediately doing top times on a green track and using cold tires.

Once I had dialed in my setup somewhat I managed to catch up to the fastest drivers and ultimately ended up getting P1 or P2 at the end of practice.

This in itself wasn't so much of a problem, but from what I could tell, the AI seemed to be stronger in this session than they should be according to the relatively low skill setting of 92.

Then came the qualifying. And this time around, the AI struggled to get anywhere close to their times from the previous session. If I remember correctly, the weather was even better (light cloud in Q vs heavy cloud in the previous session, I think), and they were like a whole second slower I think. Would have to check if I made screenshots of the times, though.

And then came the race. While I was (un?)pleasantly surprised by how easily they were able to exploit any tiny mistake on my part and make a successful pass, it soon became clear that both in dry and damp conditions (the latter made up most of the race) I wasn't going to be able to match the fastest AI driver in terms of pace - not even closely. I just had a look at the screenshots I took, and their best race lap was less than 0.2 seconds off their fastest qualifying lap - using slicks on a track that was damp for most of the race. Is that really how it should be? Even when I managed to get a fast, clean lap in the best I could manage was 9 tenths slower than the lap that put me on pole.

the tl;dr is this:
The current order of pace from fastest to slowest sessions is
P > R > Q
while it should, realistically be
Q > P > R

Moreover, the point of practice is to develop and test the setup of the car, simulate short and long runs, etc. This means that there should be a large difference between anyone's slowest and fastest laps, averaging out somewhere in-between Q and R pace, IMHO.

And, as mentioned before, it is jarring to see the AI not having to get accustomed to the rubber state of the track, nor wait until the tires are up to temperature.

Last but not least, during my second race's practice session I was spun out by a slower class car (BMW GTR) I just overtook. AI drivers really should not be that aggressive during practice, and certainly not when being overtaken by a faster class.


With all of that being said... I'm still majorly impressed by the AI's ability to dynamically handle door-to-door racing, particularly against humans. Unfortunately I am getting increasingly frustrated with my own driving skills at the same time but I guess there's nothing Reiza can do about those!

P.S.: My other major source of frustration is literal slowdowns in the speed of the game as well as extreme FPS fluctuations. The former usually happens out of the blue after some time has passed, the other is obviously dependent on CPU and GPU load - mostly due to having too many cars on track. Neither of which is an AI issue per se, though.

 

Imo I have been caught out by the AI a few times but being honest it's far less than I've done to them many many times

I call it karma Loving the state the sim is in at the moment.

 

Playing a Zero to Apex career with the Ginetta Cup. 2 races, 10 minutes each, with 95 AI and 65 agression. 4 full course yellows, 3 of them on Silvertstone alone. Have to disable the feature as obviously that is no fun.

 

Just found time to finish my current championship on Road Atlanta with the newest update. None of the issues I had with the .95 version came up at all. I had a great door to door duel with another competitor for 2 laps, it felt like the great mix between respecting each others space but also being defensive/aggressive enough to actually feel like it's a race and not a trackday with friends. Even faster multiclass AI was great in maneuvering through all the other AI and me without crashes. Whatever you adjusted for .96 definitely had a great impact on AI again.

To me AMS2 has by far the best AI in simracing, and I'm really glad that you still are not leaning back on where it stands but continue to work on it. It's really the only sim where I can get a similiar thrill in simracing that otherwise only online multiplayer can achieve. Can't wait to what 1.7 brings on all fronts including AI

 

Track: Spa 2022
Car: Mercedes GT4
AI level: 108, all scalars at 1.00
Race Settings: start time 14. 39 opponents. rolling start. all the info is in the video.

Please do not comment on my driving standards.
The AI seems to not brake at Eau Rouge Raidillon. At most they seem to briefly lift. I tried in every way possible to keep up with them but it seems impossible.
During the rest of the lap I can catch back up to them quite easily even though I commit many errors. They also seem to not brake as hard as the player needs to when taking on Stavelot (the left kink before the bus stop).

Race starts at 02:38. I left some videos from the AI pov taking the Eau Rouge at the end of the video.

I found this problem also in the 1993 layout with the BMW Procar but I realized later I wasn't recording.

 

Are you getting retirements with it set to anything other than 5x? Have you tried with the classes that are notorious for low reliability, like 70s-80s F1 with skinpacks? For example this guy gets 16 finishers out of 26 in a 50% length (I assume 2x retirements as he has 2x fuel and tyres) 1983 F1 race he posted 9 days ago:

I do think there is something not quite right. As a practice for a full length race I did a 20% length race with 5x and I got 4 retirements, whereas in the real race I got 10 retirements - it seems that with the shorter distances there isn't time for the mechanical problems to manifest themselves, but I haven't collected enough data to make a post about it yet.

 

How much shorter is "shorter distances" ? If random failres are set to "Sync to race" it shouldn't even matter if a race is 1 or 100 laps long though ? I tried 30 and 45 minute races and the cars i drove should have at least 1 retirement but never had any. It must be an issue with the specific cars.

 

Renato, at no point did I say that I prefer a console game like Gran Turismo; maybe the translator messed up, or I don’t know. What I meant to say is that ATM2 is a simulator, not an easy-to-play arcade game, and that’s what I like about ATM2, but you are right about one thing: maybe I should try my hand at tweaking or creating a setup, even though I have zero experience with that. And as for the controls, well, I know that’s not a barrier to beating or being faster than someone with a $10,000 cockpit. Anyway, my comments on what I think the game needs to improve aren’t meant to cause anger or controversy—there’s a reason I took notice of the simulator when I saw it on Steam, and that’s why I’ve bought 16 DLCs so far without any regrets; it’s worth every penny I’ve paid. Thanks, and my apologies.

 

My theory is that there is some kind of curve, where (assuming sync to race or proportional failures) the retirement rate (per lap) would increase, but not by as much as it should.

(If current behaviour is as I suspect, see above.)

Right it shouldn't but I wouldn't necessarily assume it is intended to go beyond the 10x rate we can select manually. 30 mins should be plenty though.

It looks like that. I was wondering if maybe you have random mechanical failures off, but then you wouldn't be able to select the race.

Just try Formula Retro Gen 3 like the guy above, 10x failures, 20 min race and see if you get anything, just to check it isn't something weird with your install and it is the cars. Or which cars was it (including skinpack if any)? I can see if I get the same behaviour.

 

Can you share clips of this? Usally when this is an issue it's all about getting good exists, no matter if you're on controller or wheel. There will always be corners where AI is better or worse at getting a good exists, but they usally match the pace through the track of a real player quite good.

The AMG GT4 is quite understeery in the stock setup. Eau Rogue is quite steep, so the frontend has very minimal weigth to apply turn in. For Spa you should give it a bit more frontend grip for turn in like reducing the front ARB. But also don't slam the brake full, a slight touch of like 20% of brake should shift the weigth to the front far enough to give it a proper rotation for the whole duration you want it to rotate. With a good setup it should work with just lifting throttle.

But your line is also an issue here. You go in very sharp with an early turn in to the right side, you hit the apex way too early. You bascially already clip the inner curb into the grass to get the corner at all. This make you lose tons of time for the Kemmel straigth, so it's all about placing your car good to be early on throttle with the car being stable. I tried to paint it on a screenshot of your clip for better understanding, this is bascially your current line showcasing why you will fight to keep it in the corner.

Look at these two screenshots mid corner, you don't have any room on the right left, but you're still steering hardly to bascially force the car onto the grass if it would have grip. You can't force front tires that lost grip to turn by pushing them more.

If you would have grip in this moment, you would bascially throw the car away here

Look at your input here, you're already understeering out of the corner, which means your frontend does not have enough grip to make the car rotate anymore. But at the same time you're pushing it via throttle, which means the acceleration shifts more weigth towards the rear, giving the frontend no chance to regain grip.

Here's how it should look like. You bascially cut the first left inner curb as much as you can to increase the radius of the corner. Then while lifting you take a very late apex to the right, so you touch the right side curb very late and never go over it. If you get it right you can already straigthen out the wheel at this right side curb, so the car can apply as much acceleration as it can with only very minimal steering required to get onto Kemmel.

 

Yeah, I said as the first thing in the post, don't look at my driving as I'm sure it is quite erratic but thanks for the tips, I will surely try to tweak the setup but I'm not sure it is entirely up to my driving.
Did you watch the whole video? Even when I can take the corner without going wide, the AI exits much faster. And this is an issue with all cars from the class. Actually it is an issue with all classes that can't take the Eau Rouge flat out. And it happens even when I use the Alpine, which should be the easier one to go through flat. If you skip to the end you will see the AI don't even tap the brakes. They don't even decelerate if you look at the speedometer.

 

F-Retro Gen 1, tried a 2 lap race, 3 AI cars had pitstops from mechanical issues. No retirements but likely would happen if i tried again but this showed it worked there.

M1 Pro Car and Stock USA Gen 1 i use these packs. And like i said no retirements no matter the settings.
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The AI definitely lifts in your video though. They do exactly what is correct, lifting to apply rotation. Watch the gauge. This is the correct spot to slowly decrease throttle to prepare the car for the increment.

Point to start lifting to apply rotation. Note that they just kept their speed from the first screenshot.

Point of going back on throttle and no rotation is needed anymore

Now look at your speed. It's the classic slow in, fast out mistake. You're going in way faster than AI and then have to overcorrect by slamming the brake hard which unsettles the car and make you lose all speed mid corner.

I will try Spa in GT4s later today when I get a chance to get in my rig

 

Thanks, I'm curious to see what you find out! On my part I will also try if I get the chance today.

 

The AI is much better after the last update (thanks for fixing the pushing in the corners), but one of the things that still bothers me is that I am setting them faster than I am, and they are a good 10 sec faster, but once they set their initial high times in practice, after a while, they will start to slow down in corners on me and get in my way. One of the main reasons I set them faster than me in practice, besides to push myself, is for them not to slow me down so I get my fastest lap times