Official General AI Comments & Discussion Topic

I like how the AI evolved since Alpha phase, had a lot realy good battles with AI. But now it seems, that the aggressive and strenght slider is not working for/in races.
I know, Reiza will do better, creating a good AI is not easy

 

It is a very complex task indeed, especially given the huge track+car+weather possible combinations.

Unfortunately, I can't find a good AI setting to enjoy offline races, open lobbies are a mess, SRS has not picked up the pace yet and even league racing are having issues with MP missing relevant features.

Atm AMS2 is such a weird experience for me, the feeling of the cars are amazing, the weather is mind blowing, graphics are neat, but the core part which is racing I just can't have lol

 

Still annoying in dry races after latest update: Instead of overtaking, AI go side by side for many laps, often for an entire race, sometimes 3 cars next to each others. The cars on the completely wrong line never lose speed or traction. This way, they are blocking the whole track. Out of corners, they boost like rockets although the start from 0. Whilst the human player can not pass this parade without ramming the AI, the backmarkers close up with their unrealistic out of nowhere - speed when the player is in sight.
Meanwhile, the game is on the market since one year. It is time to get such basics fixed. Cause when is the game supposed to be polished? When AMS 3 comes out?

I know that Reiza is a small studio and it was said that developing will take a while. But after one year, the customers, who are not just beta testers for Reiza, can expect more than a bug festival. Starts to remind me of the horrible PCars games, with the difference that Reiza does not make fun about people pointing on bugs of the game in the forum.

MP: Not very useful for leagues, because when player adjusts pit strategy in menu before race he risks a crash to desktop.

Single race: Still weird AI behaviour.

Championship: Only available for a few cars.

So, only hotlapping is really fun.

This may sound harsh and I do not want to be unpolite, but there are so many bugs in the game right now.

 

Formula Classic Cars: I go through corners with much more speed, they shift down to first, almost stand still and, vroom, are still on my side/back on next straight.

I was also not talking about lapping, just about the way backmarkers can close up all over sudden when player is in view. Then, they seem to carry some extra speed they do not have when racing each others or player is out of sight. And no, has nothing to do with slipstream. I am far in front, they just can see me as a small point and all over sudden they are on my back again, whilst I can not overtake because of this driver's parade in front of me.
Call me old fashioned, but I expect products which are not full of bugs. Just have a short view to the bug report thread, more than 100 pages meanwhile.
Feels like selling a house without a roof, expecting ppl to buy it.

 

Any track, except of old Hockenheim, where they are slow on the long straights ( because of their default setup, I guess.). One thing I observed by watching the replays: When having human player in front, the AI start driving fast and can brake extremely late, without locking up tyres or losing the car. When player has managed to get out of their view, they go on with "standard racing" again. Tried all kinds of aggression levels, this behaviour with driving in a different way when human player is in front/around, is always there.

Don't get me wrong. Love Reiza's work since the times of SC Extreme, AMS 1 is the simulator I played most throughout the last years, bought AMS 2 in early access. But now, after one year on the market, I start fearing that the bugs and their fixing is going to be a neverending story.

 

It might also help to reduce the grip levels of the AI with cars like these. Right now, the player has a lot of work to do on the wheel, avoiding the car from braking out and sliding in lower gears, especially with stronger ffb settings. And it is a lot of fun.
But the AI itself can drive like on rails, going over the high curbs of historic tracks as if they even were not there or driving on the grass full blast without struggeling, which means they have an advantage by their physics compared to the player.

 

Posting some of these replays (or creating new ones) would be helpful. We should analyze the entire range of speeds and lap times to see to what extent the AI are "cheating" (times and places).

 

sry, but uploading videos takes too much time with my internet connection.

 

OK...I am curious, because I have not personally experienced the AI acquiring extra speed phenomenon. The only time they catch-up to me and pass me faster than expected is when I have a bobble or make a mistake. They will not hesitate for a split second to take advantage.

I am also experimenting with Aggression and have it back to 50% now instead of the much higher numbers that were required when the AI were overly hesitant to pass even when the door was WIDE open for them.

But if they have some fake/hidden arcade-style turbo boost, we need to pin-down exactly where and when they use it. AFAIK, it is 100% not part of the intentional programming.

 

I can vouch for the extra speed too, eloquently described by someone else on this forum as "rage turbo". To me it manifests in two ways:
1) when AI within 10m or so of the player all of a sudden become hyper interested in passing the player through tiny gaps, over kerbs, or up the grass, and making lunges to do so even when the player is foot to the floor. I've seen it with all AI classes and all tracks.
2) when AI can make up implausible ground (not slipstream) on the player, who again has the pedal to the metal. This might be more track specific (eg Silverstone between Luffield and Copse) , but it is pretty infuriating when it happens.
I typically race at 95-98% AI strength 25-50% AI aggression.

 

AI is difficult and is made more difficult by the fact that different users want different things from it.

For example, it's more realistic in an F1 or GT1 race for the cars to spread out a lot and the number of battles between AI would be small. Others (like me) prefer the AI to closer together than is truly realistic to have more racing.

Or a more subtle example: How to handle the player being kind of aggressive toward the AI. Should the AI hit the player, just take what I dish out, or do they maybe get a little extra traction at times--that is, if I push the AI in the grass can they keep traction and keep battling with me? Until the end of Feb., the general answer was the third option--and that's the one I prefer. I like to race clean (again the realism thing), but if I make a mistake I'd rather not get an unfair benefit from it or have the sim start doling out penalties or something like that.

However, I think what you've seen from numerous posts here and in other discussion forums is that something major went awry with AI at the end of Feb. (at least in the view of those posters). Whatever was changed code-wise may have been small, but the impact for a lot of us who mostly want to use AMS2 to race against AI was quite negative. If we could just go back to what we had a month ago, I would be happy as a clam and back to saying that AMS2 has the best AI of any sim.

Right now it's fun with stock cars or anything similar. It used to be good with those, but also open wheel, GT1 etc. One of the most enjoyable AI races I did was about a month ago I did a 15 lap GT1 race at Spa and raced a single AI car for 3 laps. Those cars are hard to pass and you always have to race the track first and the other cars second. I got some real satisfaction from completing that single pass after trying for quite a while. That's just not possible now--I'd just get brake-checked by the AI (or something similar) and get taken out of the race.

I'm aware (and I think the other posters are) that the purpose of this thread was to get information about very specific issues--recognizing that specific issues can sometimes raise a more generic change that is needed. But right now it's hard to focus on specifics when there is just a major problem with AI booting you off the track. That behavior then brings a lot more attention to whether the AI have too much traction on the grass etc. But to me, those are peripheral issues and something that doesn't really bother me if I know I'm not going to get hooked while sticking to a consistent line on a long straightaway. Note that there weren't really a lot of strong complaints about certain not-fully-realistic AI behaviors until AI started knocking human drivers off the track for the fun of it.

Is Reiza skeptical of the claims that the AI became dirty NASCAR drivers after last month's update? Or are the general things we are complaining about by design?

If Reiza is aware of and understands the issues we've been complaining about, I think everyone would settle down if there was an acknowledgment that there is a problem. But if the thinking is the March AI was a big improvement over the Feb AI, it would be helpful for me at least to have an understanding of Reiza's AI goals. Similar to the discussions that have been had about traction on grass (for the player)--is it better to be fully realistic or more forgiving? Regardless of my opinion, I can explain to someone else what the sim is trying to do as it relates to traction on grass.

Up until last month I felt like I could easily explain what I thought the AMS2 design philosophy for AI racing was and why I thought AMS2 AI was awesome. Right now I have no idea what the goals are and racing the AI is not fun for me in most cars.

All of that said, it has been my assumption that Reiza is working on the broader AI issues so I haven't been too stressed about it. Reiza is super-aggressive about addressing issues that people find with the same and I've been figuring the March update will address most of the concerns. But I thought I'd write this overly long post as the recent back and forth makes it sound like there a major disconnect.

 

What you are describing could easily be a different scenario: the AI are faster than you, but hang back a bit waiting for their opportunity. Since the AI are not all equally calibrated yet, regardless of what Strength setting we use, some AI will be too fast, too slow or just right, assuming the setting is somewhere in a reasonably matching range. If I switch from one series to another, I might be racing perfectly with the first one and then get mugged by the second one that are treating me like the "mobile chicane" that I am to them. Then, I switch to a third series that is too slow and I am frustrated that I am driving up their rear ends at every corner and they won't get the *$@% out of the way.

One corner that is known to be slow for the AI is the Shell hairpin at Oulton Park Classic (the cambered one at the far edge of the track). For whatever reason, the AI have more difficulty putting the power down here than the player (opposite of many corners) and I can dodge to the right and pass them with two wheels on the grass (while accelerating past them). I wish they could get annoyed the way I do when they pull that manoeuvre on me at other corners

To gather evidence that the AI are actually changing speed/lap times when they are near us or passing us requires full replay details for multiple laps.

Until recently, the only time the AI broke their train was if the player(s) got in the mix and screwed up their methodical patterns with our human chaos. Now, the AI battle each other, crash into each other sometimes, attack us like a human opponent would instead of being polite and respectful of our superiority... Yes, they may do this a bit too much at times, even with lower Aggression settings, but that's something that also has to be calibrated along with their speeds.

I am paying close attention for this, but so far haven't noticed it. One last question--is this always in Race sessions, or is the behaviour also likely to happen in P and Q?

 

I did read all of what you wrote (and not ignoring it)...but, are you serious that AI are brake-checking? Where/when? They are more often able to brake too late compared to us (which can be very frustrating and annoying), but I have never heard of brake-checking...partly because they would have no reason to do so. There were many instances in prior versions where the AI would turn in on the player, but that was excised many updates ago. Usually, if they "turn-in" on you now, it's because you/we are blocking the racing line (inadvertently or not) or careering off the racing line while they career towards the racing line (likely a result of both cars having some sort of issue).

If you can provide specifics of series, track, settings and where/when the AI have demonstrated "kamikaze" behaviour, it would be helpful. Replays even more so

 

I really appreciate the time taken by everyone to contribute to these discussions on one of the most critical areas in the whole game. My personal feeling is that the quirks being demonstrated by the AI are not sporadic, and not related to AI/player speed mismatches, but are simply manifestations of the recent code to make them racier. The uncharacteristic dev silence on the matter that @stlutz has noted above, makes me think (hope) that the issues are known and being worked on. Fingers crossed for the March update so I can finally do a bit less hotlapping

 

Thanks for the reply. This is what I reported in my post back at the top of page 5 where I tried 12 times to do a GT1 race at Imola and had AI issues each time. In one case a car went by me on the main straight (no concerns there), but then got barely past me, pulled in front, and jammed on the brakes. We hadn't yet reached the meter countdown signs for what I think is technically turn 2, so it wasn't even a braking zone. The crash meant my car was done.

Another crazy one was I made a pass after Acque Minerali and was staying in my line on the right side heading to the chicane (turn 14). The car I was passing pulled to the right and hooked my rear and spun me out.

And I should note that I make no claims to be a great sim racer. That's why I currently stick to racing AI as I want to get better & safer before spending a lot of time in multi-player. So, if others don't run into the same type of things it's reasonable to chalk it up to a difference between what I thought I was doing and what I actually was doing. The reports of others make me more confident that it's not entirely this, however.

 

That is exactly what I meant: When the AI is around, the fall into some kind of rage mode, trying to do some impossible overtaking manoevres, driving over the grass or the high curbs without having grip problems. Can be fun with roof top cars, where a bit of contact and weird driving also happens in real life racing. But extremely annoying with open wheelers, because they tend to hang up in your tyres in such cases and turn your car around.

This fast closing of gaps only happens, when they can see the player in front. When I manage to move away, they fall back again. If they were overall faster, their laptimes would be better than mine, but that is not the case. In Imola 01 for example, I go out of Tosa without making a mistake, driving full speed to Piratella and sometimes all over sudden have an AI on my back that entered the hairpin almost 2 seconds later. Sees me on the straight and bang, is right behind me. So, they close such a gap within a blink of an eye. When I then after some fighting get out of their "rage area", it is done and I will not see them again in my mirrors, if I do not make mistakes.

Edit: Agression 50%, AI skill level between 90 and 105, depending on the car class. Had to lower the AI level a bit for some cars after one of the latest updates as they became quicker and I am just a mediocre driver.