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OSW Help Needed with FFB

Discussion in 'Automobilista - General Discussion' started by Spin, Nov 23, 2016.

  1. Spin

    Spin Active Member

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    Updated post #12 with some different settings I have been using for a while.
     
  2. Dean Ogurek

    Dean Ogurek Active Member Reiza Backer

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    I'm looking forward to trying the new SimuCube Firmware when it arrives for public consumption but, it certainly sounds as though it improves FFB quality quite nicely across all titles.

    I also hope someone can eventually add an engine-vibe add-on for it based on game telemetry as it's one of the things I really miss when not using the AccuForce; some simple engine vibes add life to the FFB when it is otherwise, quite flat (Standing still or very slow turns, etc.).
     
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  3. rocafella1978

    rocafella1978 Member Reiza Backer

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    do you guys use "RealFeelPlugin.ini" any changes here for OSW? (i am small MiGE user)

    IONI Pro HC
    10,000CPR/ 40,000PPR
    Small MiGE 130ST-M10010

    did any of you see this also?
    MiGE SinCos encoder kits for SimuCUBE
    With the release of the SimuCUBE open source firmware direct-drive wheels will be freed from many of the traditional hardware and software limitations plaguing OSW. No longer will the highest quality FFB be limited to expensive brands and professional applications. That's why Simtronix is happy to announce ultra-high resolution SinCos encoder kits for MiGE servos running on the SimuCUBE platform.

    The MiGE SinCos Encoder Kit is a bolt-on encoder upgrade kit for small and big MiGE servos. The kit is based around the German manufactured Heidenhain ERN480 ultra-high resolution SinCos encoder with 3.7 million CPR, providing the highest quality and lowest latency effects for SimuCUBE direct-drive wheel systems.

    The kits are purchasable now through the Simtronix website but only in limited quantities. This will allow Simtronix to asses any potential workflow and logistical issues to better serve future customers. After these limited quantities are sold, sales will resume sometime after the general release of the SimuCUBE open source firmware.

    Head to the www.sim-tronix.com to check out the kits now.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Dean Ogurek

    Dean Ogurek Active Member Reiza Backer

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    I haven't felt the need to change anything in regard to "RealFeel" for the OSW and the new FW for Simucube is getting close to public release (End of month) so I'm waiting on that.

    In regard to the SinCos Encoder, I'd be curious to read about the benefits but, they'd have to offer significant improvements at that cost to warrant purchase in my case. If it's possible to get a Mige to feel like Bodnar SS2, then I'd do it but, I doubt that's possible given the difference in motor quality.
     
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  5. rocafella1978

    rocafella1978 Member Reiza Backer

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    new OSW user looking for help (IONI Pro HC + small MiGE) in-game settings and edit files and etc. ? to make AMS feel connected and good with my OSW. any suggestions?
     
  6. Dean Ogurek

    Dean Ogurek Active Member Reiza Backer

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    I'm only familiar with the SimuCube version and the AccuForce but, my game FFB settings are almost identical for both with the AccuForce benefitting by a small amount of Min-force added to bring out more detail. One thing I always do with either wheel is use 100% force at the wheel-driver output and limit forces using the game FFB strength; doing so should ensure that you have no clipping from the game FFB signal.

    Using the 360 FFB mode in AMS, I always start by turning all dampening / friction / inertia down to zero in the wheel driver and only then, gradually add the minimal amount needed to reach my target characteristics.

    I find that AMS needs the least amount of dampening among all race-sim's so it is quite easy to tune from my experience. I generally use open wheelers to do my tuning as tin-tops generally feature more dampened FFB.
     
  7. Spin

    Spin Active Member

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    You'll still get software (game) clipping. The cars' FFB are set to clip or else people without high-powered wheels would be getting too weak FFB out of the box.

    I currently raise the "MaxForceAtSteeringRack" by around 1/3 (33%). You can check the #s the "MaxForceAtSteeringRack" of the actual car is outputting by using telemetry (eg. Motec). Having said that, you have been lowering the in-game FFB strength and I have a feeling that does something similiar. Even though the "MaxForceAtSteeringRack" doesn't change when lowering the in-game FFB settings, clipping still seems to be reduced and removed - I noticed this from around summer 2015 - summer 2016 (when I would tune using in-game FFB instead of "MaxForceAtSteeringRack"). I could feel clipping with all the cars with my wheels (T500RS, T300RS/TX, and CSW V2.0) but when lowering the FFB - for eg. setting the Brazilian Stock Car to 75% instead of 100% - the clipping would go away.

    Even though the in-game FFB doesn't change the "MaxForceAtSteeringRack," it must still be indirectly affecting it because it definitely affected/affects software clipping.
     
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  8. Dean Ogurek

    Dean Ogurek Active Member Reiza Backer

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    With the DD wheels, any of the games I play will have the game FFB strength somewhere below 50% so there should be zero clipping on the software side but, I thinks it's important for all FFB-wheel users to realize that soft-clipping will always carry over to the hardware - no matter how hard we try to tune the steering system FFB driver settings.

    For example: Kunos recommends to leave AC FFB gain at 100% for all wheels and yet, it's been demonstrated that will result in soft-clipping - at least with certain cars. That may not make much difference with some steering systems but, it's very obvious with DD systems when clipping is occurring due to very vague numb feeling during hard cornering events.

    On the flip side, AC offers the ability to raise / lower FFB levels in real time on a per-car basis so there is another way to solve some issues provided the player is aware of how clipping affects the FFB, how to recognize it and solve it.
     
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  9. Spin

    Spin Active Member

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    What I'd like to know is why reducing the in-game FFB in AMS reduces software clipping. You would think that it's all about the "MaxForceAtSteeringRack" setting but somehow reducing in-game FFB lowers software clipping as well. For example, lets say we edit a car's "MaxForceAtSteeringRack" setting for heavy clipping, then why would lowerng the in-game FFB reduce that clipping if, in the end, it's the "MaxForceAtSteeringRack" setting that determines clipping and relative FFB output?

    I guess the question actually is: what is the in-game FFB truly lowering? Maybe Reiza can answer this...
     
  10. Dean Ogurek

    Dean Ogurek Active Member Reiza Backer

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    It seems to me that it functions much the same way volume control on an audio system works with the very top reaching into distortion zones. In order to insure that the full range is available to users, there is some margin built into the system.

    Then add to that all of the various steering systems in use with FFB, and the need to provide a full range of effects becomes even greater. It's just that having DD means we notice issues more due to the increased fidelity they provide.
     
  11. Spin

    Spin Active Member

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    Well I don't really feel it any more with the DD, I could feel mostly just as much with Thrustmaster and Fanatec wheels just not as powerful.

    What I don't understand is how lowering the in-game FFB strength reduces software clipping when "MaxForceAtSteeringRack" hasn't changed. As long as the in-game car is outputting a higher number than the "MaxForceAtSteeringRack," software clipping should occur, however, lowering the in-game FFB strength seems to get around that.
     
  12. Spin

    Spin Active Member

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    Anyone have Simucube FFB settings?
    I just upgraded IONI firmware to a much more recent version and also upgraded to the Simucube and things are a little different than before...
     
  13. Dean Ogurek

    Dean Ogurek Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Depending on the encoder resolution you have, you may find that you get the same results at lower Recon-filter settings and TBW Unlimited should result in little - if any noise.

    My settings (Small Mige):
    TBW - Unlimited
    Recon-Filter - 1
    Dampening (wheel - not Windows DI) - 0.0
    Friction (Wheel) - 0.5

    I hope that Mika can increase the Recon-filter scale for even more steps (Variation). Most titles work very well at Recon-1 so it might be nice to reduce or increase that slightly (not by a full step). It may be quite different with other motors though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  14. Spin

    Spin Active Member

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    I have a 10,000 ppr large mige.

    Did you change smoothing or steering rack force in the realfeel ini? In-game FFB strength? What about wheel's torque levels?

    The recon filter is different than MMos's smoothing and a fantastic feature but I'm getting different results with it.
     
  15. Dean Ogurek

    Dean Ogurek Active Member Reiza Backer

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    I'm using a 2-mil resolution encoder. I haven't altered the realfeel-ini yet but, I have the amperage running about 80% / 40% FFB in AMS. The only forces that I find to be out of proportion for me is the raised curb pull, otherwise - I'm happy with the FFB.
     
  16. Alan Nash

    Alan Nash New Member

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    I run a 10,000 encoder on large Mige, too, Spin. Dean's Simucube filter, damping, and friction settings are spot on, though I would note that in AMS some notch filter of around 2.0, -2.5, 0.1 has helped alleviate oscillation and harsh road feedback on my system.

    I have spent some time fiddling with Realfeel maxsteeringforce settings, and have found that increasing the setting from 20 % to 33 % over the stock number eliminates soft clipping and makes the feedback feel more properly proportional and evenly distributed over the strength range of the OSW. I used JoytoKey to map the RealFeel shortcut keys to my button box and would take a lap, then adjust one tick up, another lap, etc., until I detected no soft clipping. I have done some by feel, others by also using the Motec plugin to record laps on tracks with fast corners to see the steering for "n" peak values---and setting accordingly.

    A couple of car/track combos where you for sure will get soft clipping to see what I'm talking about are the Formula V10 at Nurburgring (Patrick Giranthon) and the CART Extreme at Road America (also Patrick's). If you take the fastest corners when steering resistance is maxed---you'll see that the road is bumpy before and after the corner, glass smooth during the corner. If you increase RealFeel a few notches, you'll find those glass-smooth corners actually have bumps that were being clipped by the stock Realfeel settings.

    For reference, I'm attaching my Realfeel.ini file, in case you're interested in comparing some of my settings and factory. Some are borrowed from Marc Collins on Racedepartment. I haven't adjusted all cars---just the ones I've been driving so far. The settings I've tweaked with most care are the StockV8, CARTExtreme, Formula V10, and 911 RSR 1974.

    One positive effect of these adjustments, in addition to resolving soft clipping, has been to alleviate some harsh spiking on curbs and bumps which I think may have been related to the soft clipping. My theory, which is a very much non-expert theory, is that on the rise of a force of a bump, the maxsteeringforce cap would be abruptly reached and the more natural, physics-based crescendo and decrescendo of the force was interrupted. I actually think these Realfeel adjustment have made the FFB smoother as a result of preventing this abrupt interruption. Again . . . a theory.

    As I've tweaked Realfeel, along with following the suggestions of Dean in these forums, the FFB of AMS has really brought out the subtleties, nuance and rich detail that the DD system has to offer. I'm more and more convinced that raw power is not the most significant benefit of DD.
     

    Attached Files:

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  17. Spin

    Spin Active Member

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    Thanks. I raise my maxforce in realfeel by about 33% as well. I'm thinking of using motec to figure out the highest forces for each car and then set the maxforce in realfeel at that or just a few percent above and then lowering my wheel's amperage to compensate. This can potentiall help reduce spikes and over-harsh FFB. For eg. a lot of times the steering wheel wants to rotate so hard during oversteer that it feels like the wheel wants to break my wrists. Even in a half spin or full spin, the wheel wants to rotate so hard to the steering locks that I can't even stop the wheel from rotating to the steering locks with one hand. It's very unrealistic. Also, there is a very unrealisticlly high amount of return-spring (SAT?) that makes my driving focus more on preventing the wheel from returning to centre than on actually "driving" the car (eg. steering adjustments, micro corrections, etc.).

    I can't find a way of using high force without having very unrealistic wheel forces/behaviour. I find these problems in most sims so I suspect it's partly to do with FFB technology in general but it's sometimes really, really bad in ISI engine based sims especially during oversteer. I suspect much of it has to do with the game's physics but there's gotta be a workaround.

    Too much damping and friction doesn't work well as a workaround because they kill the overall feel and deaden the overall behaviour of the wheel which also makes it unrealistic.

    There's got to be a way to manipulate the FFB in order to try and mask the highly unrealistic FFB behaviour...
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  18. Supa

    Supa Member

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    Spin you are the most prolific on the site by far especially when it's to do with Ffb. But how much do you really know? To say that the strength slider affects clipping is rubbish. I tested it and it doesn't. Just because you have a dd wheel does not make you an expert. And you constantly moan about how unrealistic things are. Maybe you need to get a bodnar
     
  19. Wergilius

    Wergilius Member

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    I have an DD with an small Mige and 40k encoder and the AMS ffb is in general very good but I also see many DD user prefer very low to none filtered settings. In my opinion after driving race cars for many years before starting with simracing, are that this do not provide an realistic feedback.

    If you drive an non power steered race car with slicks, you will for sure have situations when you loose the wheel or it jolts out of your grip going up on high curbs or get into an deep oversteer situation.

    Since we lack some senses it for sure needs to a bit more informative, so here is much room for personal preferences.

    The one thing that was an problem for me with AMS ffb at first is the jolt or wheel oscillation created when hitting an curb or just by suspension travel, very obviously in the Boxer and Interlagos as an example. It was on an level that the car was almost not playable, or I had to set strength to low.

    By using car specific settings and use reconstruction and peaking filter this behavior can be adjusted to more reasonable levels, and to what I personally consider realistic levels. I have also after reading this thread (have seen it mention before), raised the steering rack force by 30% to all cars.

    These changes made great improvements to my AMS ffb and it's now one of my preferred ones.
     
  20. DaveS78

    DaveS78 Member Reiza Backer

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    I just got my new small Mige OSW (SimuCUBE based OSW kit SinCos – with CM110 case) up and running last week. With no knowledge of it, I found this guy's channel and decided to just follow his settings so far. These are the settings I'm currently running, minus having to turn the in-game FFB strength down to 50% as it felt too strong at 70%.

    Feels good to me and is a HUGE improvement over the G27 I've been using for years. I hadn't really played AMS much lately but this new wheel has got me driving it every night now.

    Is there an in-game app that can show if I'm clipping or not? I've driven the CART Extreme mod at a lot of different tracks and it doesn't feel like it's clipping.
     

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