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Physic discussion thread

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Avoletta1977, Jan 3, 2021.

  1. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    Can you try it at Donnington?

    I used my brakes to get around the hardness in the turning. Its like its a cork in the muscle or a sprain where you have to baby it.

    I fired up AMS1 last night or the night before and it felt a lot more neutral about such things.

    An example on Donnington AMS2 is the turn leading onto the straight - it cannot be done quickly though the A.I will. I need to introduce wheel spin to flick it round on the f309.

    This is what I mean when I say a lot of cars have a hard-limit it seems and need a ghost-hand to gently nudge it in the direction you want, and sometimes counter-steer where you don't want to overturn - and its not as predictable as one may hope... Its like being asked to hop or skip in a running race to overcome some shortfall in the track once in a while.

    Or like pushing a muscle that has a strain.

    So this issue is

    1 not transparent
    2 obscured from view a lot of the time.

    3 but I am glad someone(s) have been noticing.

    You go into ACC and its almost like the cars are free-flowing water. If you get too used to babying the car around or keeping a tight leash on it you will think ACC is too free flowing.
     
  2. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    The issue is very transparent at the result side.
    You have bad turn in = high diff lock
    You turn better by breaking rear traction = high diff lock
    You get overturning instability at apex transition (iirc) = high diff lock. (This is something, that frustrates big time, when learning V8 Supercars :D)
     
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  3. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    @Raceracerace
    Donnington, F309, default setup.
    You see...almost no difference in wheelspeeds. It also drives like a Spool. I drive this car on a regular base in AMS1 SP and it's massively different.
    f309donno.png
     
  4. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    Thanks for that. I am driving it at the moment. I will pay attention to this stuff now.
     
  5. TekNeil

    TekNeil Take me back to the 2.4l, twin 50 weber days...

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    Would be interesting to see the Group A Merc compared (PC2 VS AMS2), because at the moment I know which feels a hell of a lot better (Default setups).
     
  6. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    Drove f309 at cadwell, ramps at 89 and preload 0.

    Handled pretty well and always oversteered after apex with gentle turn and low speed, it was all nice and pliable and smooth.

    Does the game engine calculate apex before and after?

    The game certainly seems to understand the notion and apply different values.

    It was a great drive but one may expect oversteer, accounted for it and car tracked well. Still it was unnerving to see the stark contrast when looking out for it. At modest speeds I did not spin out. Cold everything.

    So I just had a good amount of laps and it felt pretty great to drive. not sure what diff was doing but car drove as well as could be expected so it seemed. It did not feel like the behavior being spoken about.

    Are there patch notes about a hybrid diff system? Anyone know?

    So if I push this thing even with these settings I will get this diff lock problem?

    edit: I seem to get it at the very end/exit when under a high type of load. back comes out with weight but its definitely not open. whole car moves rather than remain tracking forward. is that intended?

    crew chief is forever saying ok you're locking up your fronts a lot on any track actually to combat this kind of thing, i personally need to brake, but usually in that I am going too fast to get the diff thing out of it i guess
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  7. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Here we go:

    Pcars2 Hockenheim Short (B in AMS2), default loose setup
    pcars2190Ehocksho.png
    Car is basically a spool at exit behaviour and behaves okay-ish at turn-in. It actually feels, as if the car is set-up to counteract the full diff-lock, as if the development knew exactly about this problem (tinfoil-hat intensifies).
    Car has VERY low ramp angles, 6 clutches and 60Nm preload. So high lock is expected. But it doesn't differentiate at all.
    -------------------------
    AMS2, Hockenheim Short B (same track), default setup
    AMS2190Ehocksho.png
    A bit "peaky" wheelspeed difference at corner exit, no significant differentiation at corner entry. We see, AMS2 actually tries to do it better.
    Car feels better BY FAR, compared to the pCars2 version in terms of depth, except braking and turn-in actually. AMS2 has 20 Nm preload set by default in this car and for this value, it's still way too much locked.

    what do you mean?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  8. TekNeil

    TekNeil Take me back to the 2.4l, twin 50 weber days...

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    Good stuff. This here is why the PC2 version feels much better to me physics wise. By quite a long way. It feels nowhere near as predictable in AMS2 regards braking/turn in, and in mid-corner throttle control for me.
     
  9. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I expected this. ;)
    I also quite like the pCars2 version in terms of drivability, but i actually really hate it in the case of dynamics and movement. (It feels like a light brick on very grippy wheels)

    Addition:
    Same car, same track, pCars2 with 90° ramp angles, 2 clutches and 20Nm of preload:
    190E90degree.png
    Some familiar picture, (REUPLOADED, increased graph resolution) and still a tiny bit less differentiation to AMS2, but i see a pattern here.^^
    pCars2 has THE EXACT SAME ISSUE.

    Reiza, i beg you. If you find a solution to the differential/drivetrain problem, please share it with SMS (sell it? :,DDD) and ask/recommend them, they could apply a patch to pCars2. :D (yes, dream on Cringeson)
    This is a real big one, right now, seeing this :whistle:
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
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  10. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    Well cadwell with preload 0 and ramps 89 on f309 is a great drive really.
    I still think the back is separated from the front though.

    I am turning on green line and following other cars at times, and when you push it in bits you can still feel the back dragging the chain so to speak. sometimes all through a turn, sometimes in little patches at start or mid or after in turn.

    doing time trial but I also think the other f3 car was a lot better on this issue iirc but it could be because its slower and donnington is hardly super demanding for it.
     
  11. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Now imagine, how it would be with a fully functional clutch LSD, that always does, what it's supposed to do, then.

    AMS2 could totally desolate all other Madness titles in driving dynamics, when the drivetrain/diff model works properly. Maybe a bit much hype, but the comparisons i made today, are quite an eye opener for me, again...
     
  12. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    It would be brilliant I bet. I posted a 1.25 lol from two laps. But probably only 75% pushing it. The ghost cars were a lot tighter close to the turns, 10 seconds overall faster even if most people went at 1.21.

    The car with preload 0 and the 2 ramps at 89 had a lot of lift off oversteer and I could track it just nice, no it was not perfect and it felt like a heavy object was laying on the back of the car putting things off maybe, but also the locking was almost certainly present either before or after (turn in or exit I am sure of it like a plane landing then taking off; and at the moment I probably dont want it); so the actual experience is close but its would be a whole lot better/free-er feeling.

    So while I could predict things well enough, its not on point yet. Still fun but not such as mentioned where it should be at.

    While car is good to drive its not as close to simulation as it probably should be - the locking effect, being like a drum as such rather than wheels if that makes sense in distinct places just when you need that extra tractability.

    Whatever though. More testing need to define it further in my case. Its there taking bites almost.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  13. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    Second follow on post. - will someone try cadwell with preload of 60 and default ramps BUT 4 clutches.

    It goes wonderfully on that track (cadwell park).

    Also then raise downforce right up?

    27 front and 28 back

    I think that the diff may well be an issue and a lot of things work around it. But if so then is it always the case (like in rfactor we flub the setups lol) that it won't be enough to get a good sim?

    right now it could be possible at times and on certain tracks, in certain cars, to get something going working in conjunction with other settings - unreal as they are in terms of adjusting a lot upward to get close to a great drive - to get a great tractable drive.

    This setup goes really well at Donnington too. eg, and car kind of holds up in a spin and slide and all that - its very controllable - but is it exact? I don't know - but its great to drive.

    May as well go download the telemetry stuff to tap into the sub system if possible.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  14. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    At 0 Nm preload and 89° ramp angle it would/should be horribly shopping trollish.
    You could actually use reasonable values, if it works correctly.
    I gave it a quick run at Time Trial. Without preload and full ramp angles, it actually turns okay-ish, but similar to F-Retro it has this sudden better turn-in, followed by going back to hesistant to turn, leading to bad predictability, but positive effect on laptime on brake dabbing and violent lifting. I would expect it to go totally nuts at lift-off with 0Nm preload and full ramp angle at coast, to be honest. But okay, at least something is happening.

    I used 85° coast and 89° power ramp angles at 30 Nm preload or so with 2 clutches. Felt predictable enough. I was driving high downforce.
    The car is okay at Cadwell...but not really that much more, tbh. It has many quirks at corner entry, one or the other way, IMO.
     
  15. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    Seems then that this whole section of the sim has been taken out of the equation and basically dampened.

    Same here that I would have thought 0 preload would be like trying to tie up a load on a truck with the knott of the rope barely tight.

    That it even works at all is interesting. but with 60 preload and 4 clutch plates, and a LOT of downforce the car becomes good. I just don't know/from feedback in sound and feel through wheel if the diff is doing what its supposed to do a little more than usual.

    certainly if one slides the car the whole thing seems to open up - how else could it grab the road again (after say doing a 270 degree slide) unless thats a separate lump of code doing that work instead of diff etc calcs

    I am guessing it is definitely not even if it drives good due to the downforce I suppose.

    And also I am wondering if the brand new cars, being from a clean slate, have more about them in that lump of code/values so that they use the differential better. At least then there's a relation established and reference point. Or is that worked out already thats the case.

    or then again is it that the tracks made already do not take into account the diff. not fully sure how these things work or which ones are required (like in textures/cubemaps etc) to be present to give the final result/how they work together. Thus if one was to go to Spa, for example, in the new cars, they may limit this effect entirely.

    __

    But donnington with 60 preload, those downforce settings mentioned 2 clutches and default ramp, goes surprisingly well. Cold tires and brakes, outlap is very decent

    Could it be that donnington under this circumstance is within bounds. Could this also mean that the diff settings kind of work - wondering how long a rework would take?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  16. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    What?
    It should work, that's what it's supposed to do...
    higher preload and more clutches should increase the lock by a lot (especially with the problems right now)
    It's more likely, it stops spinning, when all axles are locked together instead of opened. Spinning off throttle is a coast situation at least. (Hitting the clutch takes away all the load on the drivetrain, though and can also recover spins, so i'm not totally sure)
    Likely, because GTs show more effect, with higher ramp angles and lower preload. It's still not okay.
    You can counteract full diff lock downsides under braking by front suspension adjustments, for example. Downforce will likely prevent snappyness at corner exit.

    The drivetrain physics are completely car connected. It's not connected to the track. Tighter tracks just reveal more points of dynamics. Reiza could design a Skidpad for AMS2 and it would show at the most barebones style, how good diffs are (not) working.

    1:15.9 at Cadwell btw. with 10Nm preload i think, and very high ramp angles, more camber, higher ride-height and downforce...
    You can definetly push it without problems, i think, this car can hit high 1:14 times...The way you achieve it, is more "working around the issue", than using reasonable configurations, though.
     
  17. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    Ha! well done for 1.15

    Yes working around it - which confuses me very often so thank you for the info.

    Just did ACC with McLaren 720 at imola. It drives like a dream by comparison. off throttle and on to it, out of turn and into it, can even correct well during a turn when on wrong line (after first straight for example) and the car still tracks forward.

    Yes AMS2 can be very exciting at imola. So I will head back there with a new car to look at it and how it measures up in a side by side .

    Never realized in exact terms though I guess everyone knew something was up, what was going on.

    Actually correcting some of it in the suspension is what I sometimes do on various cars. I just don't have a consistent system I do with them all.

    So while Imola is not going to be exact, wonder if its improved because in AMS2 it can be very thrilling throwing a car round it.
     
  18. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I'm not sure, most of the userbase knows...and it's quite good this way...for now.
     
  19. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    In the McLaren GT1 I just went around Imola pretty sloppily, with 2 clutch plates and 72 power ramp (edit) and 150 viscous LSD value. IF I change my driving habits diligently over time I reckon I could post a very respectable lap time with that setup.

    Thats down from 4 clutch plates and 75. That was also setting change number 5 or 6 to arrive at that. Tried to establish a baseline, then standard deviation; but at no point did the diff system approach anything like ACC for example.

    I have 32gb ram and have both loaded and swapping between.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  20. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    You hopefully mean McLaren GT3?

    ACC sometimes makes the impression of doing it "too" well, though (like AMS1 also does). I don't know, if it's the right benchmark, for finding hints.
     

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