Physics discussion thread

I was thinking about writing a longer response, but at this point: Guys, don't feed the troll. He will never bring up anything to back up his claims anyways.

These latest claims are not only accusing Reiza of lying about all the physics and tires updates they did, but heavily discredit the work they put into this, which is quite a statement to make here. Just move on man, you're losing all the credibility you once had here...

 

He did intend to run the time trial setup but he didn't do it because the lfm series uses fixed setup (force default setup ON), so it was just the default setup.

Generally speaking, Baldwin is a very credible person when it comes to this subject because, unlike others like Daniel Morad, he didn't just play one sim ever and smashes everything else as unrealistic. Instead, he has competed and won in the most competitive esports competitions across all different platforms (Project Cars 2, ACC, Rennsport, ...) and therefore knows his way around racing sims whose name is not iRacing.
In his reviews, you can see, he always tries to give credit where credit is due. Of course, no one person can speak the objective truth but it's definitely a valuable input.

On the subject of traction control, I've seen someone write "it cuts too much". This is completely false, it's exactly the opposite. The way the traction control works in ams2 (in the languae of real tc systems) is that it's running an extremely high tc slip and low tc cut. For the driving, this means that the tc is constantly engaging even when it's not necessary.
Though the effect is quite small, it still means that every time the tc engages needlessly, you will loose a tiny bit of lap time.
I'd say this type of tc behaviour is very beginner friendly as it counteracts wheelspin very early on but it doesn't bahave like the real tc systems. Thankfully, modern race cars like GT3s always have a TC indicator, showing when the tc engages, so we can compare it to the sim. If you look at the onboards from Riccardo Cazzaniga in the Audi GT3 at spa, you can see that the tc only really cuts 1-2 times per lap in the low speed traction zones at la source and bus stop. In ams2 you'll have the tc engaging like 20 time per lap or so.
So bottom line of the tc in ams2 is: it doesn't cut too much, it engages too early.

Finally, i'd like to give my two cents on the "slidieness debate".
Some people say it's "just the camera setting, ffb, some setting, ..". It's true that you can alter your perception by changing these settings and mitigate the issue somewhat. But the way it feels to me is that there is an actual thing in the physics and it is not just perceived. Prior to the 1.6 update, you could slide race cars throught the corners without the tires giving up and you could be quick with it. After the 1.6 update, this is no longer the case. There is a limit to how much slip a tire allows and aftter that it just gives up. This was undoubtedly fixed in the update. However, a lot of the 'slidy feeling' still persists after the 1.6 update. This means that the slidieness feeling is not just about how much slip a tire allows but also something different. It is always really difficult to describe what you are feeling through the wheel but i'll give my best try, trying to decribe how it feels to me:
In the real cars i have driven and in other sims like ACC, you can feel quite a noticable transition from static friction to kinetic friction of the tire (especially rear tires). There is, of course, always a little bit of "yawing" from the car involved in cornering but it feels like you can clearly tell, at any stage in the cornering "Is my car currently sliding with the rear or not? (is the tire operating within static or kinetic friction)". In ams2, it feels like there isn't enough of a differenece between static and kinetic friction. It feels like the rears go from not sliding to sliding a little bit without any transition. It's hard to feel where the limit of the tires is before it starts to slide. And sliding a little bit feels very simialr to not sliding at all. I think it becomes more obvious what i mean when you have a look at project motor racing. PMR is in that regard, pretty much the opposite to ams2. You can clearly see a massive difference between sliding and not sliding. I do think that PMR looks too extreme in that regard but i also think ams2 is a bit too much on the "no difference between sliding and no sliding side". The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Hope that makes any sense. Just my own perception of the handling in ams2

 

Alleged slideyness hasn't been a problem me for a couple of patches now.


My main gripe with the physics is how you can flick the car especially in slower corners.
If you turn the steering wheel pretty smoothly, the car behaves more or less like expected.
But if you flick the steering wheel, you gain very controllable oversteer.
This behaviour feels very unrealistic, because you surely can't manipulate a heavy car in such way with a steering wheel in lower speeds.

 

I do find your posts interesting to read, but I really think that you are undermining your own argument here if you think AMS2 is disappointing and ACR is somehow better. ACR is incredibly promising and I'm fully on board and loving it from day 1, but it's quite flawed at this stage and has some way to go in the physics department.

 

Can you go further into why you think this is an issue or in what cars that felt wrong to you? To me what you decribe sounds pretty much like the expected behaviour. For powered RWD cars I would expect:

Slow corners

• Low aero forces, rear axle has less grip
• Load changes like steering or braking have more impact
• Broad range of tire grip, so the difference between grip and drift is softer and controllable

Fast corners

• High aero forces, rear axle is very stable
• Load changes are not as impactful
• Tires get more peaky, the moment you lose grip is more abrupt and harder to catch

 

So I have to take this back. I had gotten the GT4 G55 mixed up with the GT3, thinking that the GT4 variant had TC and ABS by default. However in-game it states the GT4 variant has no electronics.

I'm all about driving authentically, so in this case 100% back JB in driving without TC and ABS.

 

There are two versions of this car...which can be confusing. The Cup car does not have TC, so you can't choose whether to use it or not (assuming authentic settings, which if they are not on, then we can ignore the review and reviewer). The GT4 series car does have TC, like all its stablemates, which means you can turn it up and down (or off) as you drive, with an in-car control, just like the real one.

 

No wonder I'm so confused. I didn't look in the GT4 category, just in the Cup and GT3. Nonetheless when I looked earlier I took the Cup variant (no assists) for a quick blast around Bathurst and it is such a fun, intuitive car to drive

 

Frankly it doesn’t matter if the car is rwd, fwd or awd since this happens also when coasting.

When you flick the steering wheel fast in slow speed, the front of the car almost jumps and ignoring mass of the car completely.
You can reproduce this behaviour with every car in the sim, but ofc with heavier GT cars it’s more noticeable.

Please just test it yourself; coast in straight line in low speed and flick the steering wheel aggressively.
The resulting behaviour is undeniably unrealistic.

 

Can you please make a video of what you're describing? I've just tried to replicate your results in the McLaren 720S GT3, Ginetta GT5, Super V8, Lamborghini Miura, Camaro SS (street car), and the Audi V8 DTM. Everything to me behaved the way I expected they would with a mixture of understeer and oversteer depending on where the weight has shifted. The Audi V8 was the only one to exhibit controllable oversteer and that was only after I spun it the first time (also the only one that had enough oversteer to spun) and then I was expecting it.

I'm not saying you're wrong I'm just saying I couldn't duplicate what you're saying is unrealistic and I need to see you do it

 

As I already told you, ACR is still in early access. But the physics are already light-years ahead of AMS2 when you compare the rally cars. That's it.

 

Tried with 3 different GT3 cars on default setup and I can't get it to do what you describe. Tried in diffrent speeds, a lot/little steering input, doing it fast as I can and whatever I could think of, but nope, I usually end up with what I expect, clear understeer with fronts skipping.

I can get oversteer with help of brake inputs or applying the throttle while cornering and being on the limit of the rear already.

Not sure what are you doing to et that.

Definitely agree with most of this.. (I don't think Morad is that bad, even though he is a bit biased and favours iRacing).

For the "slidiness feeling", to describe this in less scientific terms, in other sims I have played, it kinda feels the slick tires are more "sticky" and there is more of that distinct feeling when you the rear tires start to give in and slide laterally on the surface (especially in rF2 and ACC on some cars it's very obvious thru the FFB, but in different ways), but in AMS2, it does feel slightly like it would be in the sliding state, even when you might not actually be sliding at all (I can't tell for sure). It never really feels very "sticky" (bity) and there and it's hard to feel the edge/cliff, which I think makes it hard for some us to get used to. The tire sound also makes it seem you are driving on a gravel surface when you are turning, instead of the tires biting to the surface.

The things is, my brain has already adjusted to this and unless I really start to think about it, it doesn't feel slidey to me like that. I still wouldn't mind it being more clear and have more bite feeling as it would give better idea also when the tires start to give out slightly from overheating or tire wear.

As for the TC, I think it's exactly like as you say. If you have telemetry overlay, like this one: Reddit - The heart of the internet (I have tried all which I have been able to find, this is the best of this kind of overlay's), you can see how much the TC is cutting on the throttle line (the TC - icon in the game doesn't always give you right impression), it triggers early, very frequently, but every cut is minor.

ps. Baldwin used time trial setup when he was triying out the McLaren on his video after 1.6 year ago, that setup was super slidey and abusing the overinflated tires behavior, where you gained too much time with having less rolling resistance on high speeds back them (now the rolling resistance becomes less in higher speeds, so I don't think the advange of running overinflated tires is as beneficial). That definitely made the car slidey as hell, but you could still manage it if you were skilled enough. It did give a wrong impression of overal physics though.

 

I do think the tire audio in AMS2 does contribute to the sense of "Slidiness" more than most realize. If I turn the tire sounds way down (to <35%), that issue improves but then I'm also missing some of the immersion related to tire-squeal sound. The tire-scrub audio factor may be less of an issue for people relying on motion / tactile systems for more feedback, though.

 

I can't understand how we're still in a "x is more realistic than y" arguments.

No sim is realistic.

They're all fake - the missing g-forces and other signals have to be artificially injected to the FFB. Every sim does it and because of that neither is realistic (whatever the term "realistic" means in the world of computer games that run on domestic machines).

Just pick your favourite fake and let others do the same without throwing a tantrum.

Thank you.

 

If the game were 100% real, most people would say that the game is very difficult and they can't drive any laps.

 

I don’t feel like i’m gonna elaborate the flicking oversteer further, instead i’m gonna comment about your second point about feeling slide even when not sliding.

I definitely agree that and how i personally got over it:

I increased the mass damper value for the custom ffb 10x from 3 to 30. Now the ffb/tires feel way more peaky for me!

 

Yeah,since AMS2 is full of rally cars...oh so many bad rally cars....ohh
Are you always compare apples with oranges?

 

Which custom file were you using?

ps. my intention with my reply to the flipping behavior wasn't intended to negate your experience, I just didn't get that of behavior or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by that. Especially that fronts "almost jumping" sounds really weird, as if something is wrong in you game somehow. I can get the rear to oversteer if I have the fronts loaded enough, but I need more than just turning the wheel for that, at least with default setups on the GT3. I can imagine it being possible with some cars / setups, which would have really strong fronts that take over the rear more easily if you ask too much of the rears suddenly and unstabilize it (which sound realistic as well).

 

The standard custom file which the sim creates automatically, it's pretty great.

Yeah i know that your intentions are good - after all we both have participated to this topic for months now.
You need to flick really aggressively to experience this flicking behaviour. Most natural way to reproduce it is to start turn in to tight corner normally and then flick the wheel aggressively when mid-cornering. But it's also possible to reproduce in a straight line.

EDIT: Further instructions to reproduce this:

1. You need to have warm tyres, frankly the behaviour with the cold tyres is perfect.

2. It's easier to reproduce with the max steering lock degrees, for example 28 deg for the Aston GT3. It's not necessary, but "helps" a lot.

 

I wasn't referring specifically to The Elbow at Bathurst. All the way from that first tight left at the Cutting, you go uphill then it's a right then 3 lefts I think I'm trying to remember. There's the delay even on those uphill turns. As for the Nordschleife I think that right hander at Flugplatz, the left hander at Mutkurve and then the following right at Klostertal those are the two turns right before you turn right to go to the Carousel. But again it's mostly it's a lot of the turns where you carry a bit of speed into. T1 and T7 at Hockenheim GP, T1 at Road America, T1 at Road Atlanta, etc. There's just this split second of a delay once you turn the wheel THEN the rear end comes around like it's the part of the car doing the steering. It's like you're pulling the car through the turns using a rope that is tied to the front end. You get that swinging pendulum effect.

I can't figure out how to do screen shots of my in game settings. I'm using the Default+ FFB. I use a Fanatec CSL DD wheel with these settings except the Force Feedback Scale is now on Linear instead of Peak.