Physics discussion thread

Why are they not relevant? Physics in real nature has become different?

This video might be useful, maybe not for you, but it might be for someone else. Car operation and physics are popular search queries.

I think such spam posts are definitely not appropriate for a physics discussion. And sorry, I might have been mistaken about James Baldwin's video.

...I'm new here.

 

its ok, its a bit of cheeky reminiscing of the same old discussion, and same old videos.
I’m am pleased your enthusiastic about understanding physics of the game and even how it might differ from other titles .
I have watched that video a few times , and it’s helpful in some regard, but not actually that accurate at same time.
It’s worth remembering that not every video on physics is going to have the same content or conclusion, and it’s just someone’s thoughts.
Many of the older Ams2 videos from YouTubers are very outdated and not really relevant to what the current physics are .
And many are just from someone without much understanding and based off there previous experiences of titles they may have found more to there liking at the time, but aren’t actually a good reference because they were not modelling to the same level at the time and they don’t actually objectively know if it was that realistic at the time , it’s just what they got used too.

 

James's main gripe about AMS2 was that the engine braking was too strong but he had it set to the maximum.

 

Before you dislike every single comment others made maybe record some clips where exactly this behaviour happens with inputs shown? Videos from even half a year ago are absolutely outdated since AMS2 pyhsics and tires models drastically changed in the last 6 months. If you still unsettle the rearend on turn in in high downforce cars it's because of the drivers fault.

Did a quite short test in M4 & C8 GT3. Time Trial, Airfield, roughly 150kmh, TCS Off. Trying to unsettle the rearend on turn in in current version 1.6.9.1.

• First with very sharp sudden steering. You can see how the front tires skid over the front, the car heavily understeers until the tires can grip up and intiate a proper rotation
• Then Smother steering. It's on the edge of having enough grip, you can see the front tires still skid a bit before gripping up.
• Slight braking. You can obviously see how the load shift towards the front now loads the front tires properly so they can initiate a very smooth and way sharper rotation. Look carefully how these short moments of skid on turning are gone with the front tires loaded correctly.
• Going mad: Only when applying very sudden and full pedal inputs like going full throttle while turning in made the car fly away (which even wouldn't happen as much with TCS on as the cars are supposed to have)

These are just short clips from the test which went on longer. The overlay displays the pedal inputs to showcase what I've done.

I just want to see how people get to have a loose rearend in high downforce cars on turnin. I really don't get it. Until you really unsettle the car by your inputs they do exactly what I expect from a pyhsics standpoint. You have to shift the weigth to the front tires to have a proper turn in, otherwise the front tires don't grip up enough and you understeer. You can even see how frontengine car with the engine weigth pressing on the front tires planted the frontend much safer under braking while the midengine car correctly turns in sharper with the weigth balance pushing the rearend once the weigth shifts back

Of course some classes like Formula Vee which doesn't have any aero are very loose on the rearend since yeah there is no aero to plant the rearend to the ground so you have to be very smooth with your inputs to keep it balanced.

 

I really appreciate your tests and video records. And i agree; there’s no issue in + 150 kp/h speeds, especially with twitchy inputs.

The rear reacting too much to steering inputs is only a problem in under pit speed limit, so in track only the tightest corners are actually a problem.
If anything, ams2 is generally too understeery at high speed with the gt3’s.

Another thing; you still need to nail the corner entry to have the rear step out. Ofc it doesn’t if understeer is induced.
The rear only steps out excessively, if the front end is rotating.

I just wish a little more planted rear on coasting. The rear sliding on throttle/brake is not an issue for me.
The setup chances doesn’t do anything for me in this regard.

And again; AMS2 1.6.9 is my favourite sim. I’m not laying my critic for argumental reasons.
I’m an active commenter here, because Reiza seems to still actively tweak physics and in every update the physics have changed more satisfactory for me.

For example, my largest criticism was too forgiving front end, which the update 1.6.9 almost completely fixed.

 

Не соглашусь с этим

I don't know what you meant, whether it was during the test or the principle in general. But I disagree. I'm competing in the Stock Car 24 tournament. The first two stages were impossible to drive, and my throttle pedal never overloaded in this type of car during those "Unpredictable Turns." There were bad entries, overshoots, overheating, and in some tests, a broken rear spoiler (the spoiler has the biggest impact on turning, especially under braking).

I want to point out, I think this is important, that when I see people's complaints, I see that we don't hate this game; we want to figure it out, we want to understand the problem, and make it even better. Speaking for myself, I'm in no way engaging in hatred; I've simply noticed some strange behavior and am trying to figure it out, to find an answer. And since these moments are unpredictable for me, this becomes an interesting question to discuss.

I can say that after driving the Aston Martin GT4 Evo, I was surprised by how good it was on the road! It has good grip and cornering, with a minimal turning threshold, which I wouldn't say about others, like my beloved R8. This was done with the settings that have now been completely reworked with the update, but even now the Vantage is the best in terms of stability and comfort, at least among the R8s! XD What I'm saying is that I was extremely surprised when I switched from the R8; it felt impossible.

I think the newer car variants, like the Viper, better demonstrate physics issues. They have a lot to compare with real prototypes in standard settings, and there are plenty of real reviews of them, even though they're new enough in the game to have issues. I'll think about it. I'll try to make my own comparison, or record the turning points in my cases, to answer the question (Skill or Physics).

What I don’t like is the braking effect that leads to skidding, and the gas effect that also leads to skidding. Braking also often results in locking, meaning it's ineffective, despite the fact that the update improved road grip (It's not just on Viper.).

In the meantime, for a more thorough discussion and verification of physics compliance tests and other issues, I would like to offer a high-quality video with a view of legs from Misha Charoudin
on Viper :

Additionally:

I think this can be taken as a standard in the discussion =)

 

If some cars /models have certain characteristics, but majority don't (anymore at least), then it's not some AMS2 physics characteristics as people often make it to be.

Stock car 24 have had this kind of trait from the beginnig, I can't say if it's correct or not for this car (or for the Viper), but sure, some cars have it (and could be it's intended).

 

My video was meant to show that there is proper weigth balance you have to work with to get the front wheel to grip up and get a smooth and sharp rotation, and even reduce front tire skid. I don't think the pyhsics of AMS2 have any flaw here otherwise all cars would suffer from that.

Of course I don't think anybody tries to hate the sim here, I am a big fan of pointing out issues (as I did with the Supercar Z06 version in the 1.6.9.1 topic) since we all profit if they can improve things that doesn't work as it should.

For cars like Brazil Stock Cars 2024 I honestly don't have good reference how the cars are supposed to drive since I never watched any real life stuff of them. But as with all Stock Cars, these have to be driven very carefully since they don't have much aero to save you. So it would be great so see some gameplay to understand where the issues might be.

Haven't driven the Viper ACR a lot yet, what exactly is wrong with it ingame?

 

I mentioned the sensitivity to skidding when braking and accelerating above. Also, wheel locking when braking. I tried adjusting the in-game input sensitivity, but it prevents skidding to a certain extent, but not wheel locking. I think this also affects the weight balancing system, but I don't know. Pressing the pedal to the floor causes the car to skid both on a straight line and even more so on turns and exits, which you won’t see in real-life videos. If I were to take Misha’s examples, I would have crashed the car long ago.

By changing the sensitivity settings, the stunningly aggressive Viper turns into a comfortable Cadillac, losing its road performance. This can be seen in Mikhail's handling: he's much more active with the pedals, and he doesn't have any locking wheels. He handles both tight, small corners and high-speed corners with smaller braking zones better. This is what I see and feel... With constant wheel locking, you can't figure out what's wrong. Yes, the standard configuration in AMC2 can differ significantly from similar real-world cars; I compared them using the standard settings in these conditions. And yes, I am far from Mikhail’s skill and experience, so there is a big gap in comparison, so I want to see other results, from more experienced riders.

I'm curious to see how others will feel and evaluate this, visually comparing real-life and in-game examples. Maybe someone has experience with the real-life Viper.

I'd like to point out that wheel lockup is a constant occurrence in my setup, across many types of cars. I think changing the sensitivity settings could fix this, but at the cost of significantly lower speeds and longer braking distances, it's unacceptable. Constantly - this is after the last few major updates, it seems there were 2 of them. Before that, everyone complained that the cars were slippery, but it was better for me than it is now.

Added:

And yes, in the case of testing, if we use the Viper as a benchmark, we need to determine its settings! Because I found information that the real-world ACR has a 51% rear weight distribution, which is significantly different from the default in-game settings.

 

@PAW Just to make sure: What Livetrack Preset do you use? Race is set to standard progression, so training or qualify should be set to medium or high to start with optimal grip. If you set all of them to default progression you will start on a quite green track which will lead to grip issues

Don't quite get why you're asking AI here. It will have absolutely no clue what to setup in AMS2 since there is nothing written down about that it could steal the data from. I will try to do some laps with the Viper ACR in the upcoming days to see how it drives

 

I think a lot of the problems with locking up brakes comes from two things: firstly in most other sims the brakes are not simulated properly and you can stamp on them with no fear of locking. Secondly it's down to our brake pedals. IRl every cars brake pedal feels very different, yet we drive many cars in sim with the same pedal, so pedal feel doesn't match the cars. An active pedal that could take information from the sim would be fantastic, but as far as I am aware no sim does this yet and a active pedal is too expensive for most of us.

Putting all that aside, most of us just brake way too hard, having a stiffer pedal does help with the cars that easily lock up.

 

I asked the AI about possible available real-world engineering information about the car, telemetry data, and the like. I did this for basic information, he knows a lot more about Viper than I do XD, and I'll say that the 51% balance made the car better. You shouldn't find fault with this, it's an example..

The highway is green, I'll try..Heavy Rubber

He cited the sourcesI don't know them)

Sources (real engineering data)

1. Dodge SRT Viper ACR Engineering Brief (2016) — internal documents cited inSAE papers.
2. Road & Track – "Viper ACR Nürburgring Record Deep Dive" (2016)
3. MotorTrend – Technical Analysis of ACR Suspension
4. Kumho Tire – V720 ACR Technical Datasheet
5. Viper Exchange Forum — owners with collapse measurements, ride height, steering lock.
6. SAE Paper 2016-01-1645 – "Aerodynamic Development of the 2016 Dodge Viper ACR"

1. SAE Paper 2016-01-1645 – "Aerodynamic Development of the 2016 Dodge Viper ACR"
   
   

I asked the AI about possible available real-world engineering information about the car, telemetry data, and the like. I did this for basic information, he knows a lot more about Viper than I do XD, and I'll say that the 51% balance made the car better. You shouldn't find fault with this, it's an example..

The highway is green, I'll try..Heavy Rubber

He cited the sourcesI don't know them)

Sources (real engineering data)

1. Dodge SRT Viper ACR Engineering Brief (2016) — internal documents cited inSAE papers.
2. Road & Track – "Viper ACR Nürburgring Record Deep Dive" (2016)
3. MotorTrend – Technical Analysis of ACR Suspension
4. Kumho Tire – V720 ACR Technical Datasheet
5. Viper Exchange Forum — owners with collapse measurements, ride height, steering lock.
6. SAE Paper 2016-01-1645 – "Aerodynamic Development of the 2016 Dodge Viper ACR"
   
   

No, it doesn't help. I also noticed that on higher bumps (bumps), with a slight takeoff and landing, the car also stretches into a micro skid, in some moments it feels very strong, it shouldn't be like that.

I lowered the tire pressure to 1.52/1.52, the braking seems to have become more effective, but the drifts and blockages have not disappeared. I also lowered the brake sensitivity to 1, this does not prevent blocking..

With this entry, I meant to do personal testing of the game for everyone who can try it on Viper. But to do this, we need to come up with more realistic standards so that they become a reference point for testing.

You can guess and reason from scratch as much as you want, but real experience and your own testing is "Constructive". I want less flooding and more constructive information on the test.

I'm not sure if this will help make the game better. It's unlikely that the developers will read this and accept it, but we would understand something.

Thank you for understanding!

Here is one of the documents
2016_Dodge_Viper_Specs8p8494relih5em1i7jbcj7sinc.pdf

 

For non ABS cars have you tried lowering your brake pressure in the car setup? It should make wheel lockup harder.

 

Do you have ABS and TC set to Authentic in Gameplay settings ?

 

I have this setting, as I understand it, it automatically adjusts to the car. Or I'm wrong.

 

that’s correct. , it just sounded a bit like you didn’t have it selected,
The ACR viper has Abs , you shouldn’t have issues locking wheels .

 

@PAW No sim will ever be so close to realism that real world values of car setups and alignment will work exactly like that in the sim. Just hop into the same car in 3 different sims and you will find totally different values that make the car drivable. If you want to build a good setup start with the base AMS2 setup and work from there, click by click, test by test. I really don't understand what you mean with more realistic standards for tests. Just record clips of your driving where all the anomalies happen that you want to point out and we can discuss from there. Before that happens I think it's quite on the edge to being insulting calling other people flooding and not constructive here ;-)

Honestly I've seen this over the last year way too many times. Tons of claims how the cars to this and the cars do that. You can ask for clips and nothing ever happens

 

With the help of this document, I made a setup for the Viper, there is no information on the suspension, I had to use AI. I made the tire pressure on my own, but the tire recommendation is ~2bar, I don't quite understand under what conditions, but ...
And yes, the wheel rotation angle is ~880, according to the characteristics from edge to edge in two full turns!

The files need to be inserted along the way
C:\Users\PAW\Documents\Automobilista 2\savegame\NUMBERSAVEGAMES\automobilista 2\vehiclesetups_1_6

It seems like it should look like this. I want to note that the gear ratio in the game practically corresponds to the document, a small error!

Game setting



Pit House setting

I don't think it's appropriate to compare games and even more so to adjust as you say. In your opinion, what do developers do to "Improve" the performance of tires, for example? According to you, this job doesn't make any sense, just take it and get used to what you have! I disagree with this, there is always a lot to strive for.

Besides, what you're talking about will have to be reconfigured with each update. This is nonsense, and there is no construction in the discussion. Let me remind you that my idea was to compare the behavior of Viper on video in real life and in the game, rather than learn how to apply the brakes and adjust the game...

What you called realistic standards (Actual parameters of a real car), in my case based on the document attached above.

I don't see any specifics, experiences on Viper, or comparisons from the machine's operation to the video from yourself, so far you're clogging up the airwaves, I'm sorry.

I'll make a video later when I accept some kind of standard.

 

Have you driven a Viper at the limit in real life?
Or are you just saying your experience with this game doesn't match up to a Youtube video someone made that you are trying to analyse?
Just curious.

 

Before this gets out of hand, all should remember, that this is very fresh content, and like always , the development doesn’t finish with initial release.

Is it underivable = no.
Is there room for improvement = yes , on several aspects, not just handling.
Will that happen = historically speaking I would say yes .

be patient.