Physics discussion thread

I suspect this "floaty" feeling you're decribing is more than likely FFB related. I don't think the cars are floaty. The term "floaty" IRL is used to describe a car that is lazy to inputs, basically you turn the wheel and chassis takes a while to react, turn in and settle. A lot of stock productions cars when taken to the track are "floaty" due to a combination of softer suspension, safer alignment, low grip tires and too much body roll.

Perhaps you're just expecting some FFB effect you get from AMS1 or AC that you're not getting from AMS2? I've come to learn that there are 2 kinds of FFB implementations:
1. One that simulates the effects on the tires, not as realistic but has a lot of additional FFB effects (which I assume is what AC and AMS1 uses).
2. One that simulates the effects on the steering column, while more realistic, lack a lot of FFB effects (which games like iRacing and ACC use).

I really wish people would stop using the term "floaty" and just say the FFB is not as communicative.

Agreed the default TC setting of 6 is too high for advanced drivers.

Speaking of GT3 TC in different games, apparently ACC has the most realistic TC implementation. The one in LMU is supposedly unrealistic as all GT3 cars don't have TC1, TC2 and TC3. Also not all GT3s have TC1 and TC2, some may only have TC1. Honestly, I think the Reiza's resources could be better spent in other aspects of the game that need improvement over trying to model hyper realistic TC settings for all the different GT3 cars. Personally I'm content with the current TC implementation in AMS2.

 

Well, let’s say slippery in this case

 

You are trading one very vague word for another though

You say your throttle feels like an On/Off switch, have you tried checking an input monitor how your input actually behaves? Without proper ability to apply throttle of course cars will feel loose

 

I don't think a hyper realistic implementation is required for all classes, but at least having a TC1 and TC2 setting for the modern cars specifcally could really improve the experience.

 

Yes I did and it doesn't produce a smooth line like it does in ACC or AMS1. I've adjusted the sensitivity settings in every possible way, but to no avail. As I mentioned, I don't experience this in other simulators.

 

I agree with @Ace, "slippery" is another vague term that doesn't describe what you're trying to say. The cars are neither "floaty" or "slippery" in AMS2, they react like cars in the real world do.

Perhaps you can say, when I do X input on the wheel, in Y situation, I'm getting Z FFB feedback. Given a similar situation in AC/AMS1 I get W feedback and that is what I would like to feel. That might help us understand what you're trying to describe.

 

In AMS1, I feel it as I approach the traction limit, so I ease off the throttle a little to prevent oversteer or understeer. In AMS2, you feel it coming, but by then it has already happened and you end up in a slide. In AMS1 or ACC, I can accelerate normally and gradually, as you can see in the live telemetry app; that is certainly not the case in AMS2, and I have to do my utmost to do so. This feels unnatural. So it is mainly when exiting the corner that I apply the throttle cautiously, but it still doesn't happen gradually. I hope I have described it a bit more clearly now.

 

Not really, because I'm still not getting what you're feeling. What are you feeling at the limit that's different? Lighter steering? Stiffer steering? More damped steering? Less damped steering? A gradual pull in a certain direction?

 

Just like what you feel in a real car steering wheel when you reach the limits, when you reach the limit of grip the feeling in the steering wheel become more heavy, you can better counter steer when you lost grip and so on

 

Based on my real world experience, on cars with power steering, you don't feel much through the steering wheel when driving at the limit. You may feel the steering get slightly heavy under hard braking. Or getting light as you drive over a crest. Or you may feel it pull in a certain direction if you hit a bump. Or vibrate if you drive over rumble strips. You may notice the steering wheel become light, if you experience understeer as the front tires have lost grip. But for the most part, you don't get much feedback throught the steering IRL. If you have a manual rack you may feel those effects a bit more intensely but it doesn't add any more "effects". Perhaps your experience is different from mine but I can only talk about what I've personally experienced.

Searching for the limits for grip IRL is more felt through your body. Feeling the car go over the limit, aka oversteer or understeer, is mostly experienced by your body and visually, not the steering wheel, IMHO.

That being said, if I'm understanding it correctly, you would like the wheel to get more damped as the load on the tires increase during cornering? A get lighter if it goes over the limit?

 

Then this sounds like the core of most of your issues. You should always be able to produce very clean throttle application and do precise inputs to fixed percentages like 20%, 40%, 50%, etc to have good control over the car. If you can only press the throttle hard you will lose the feeling when the grip is about to fade and you have to open up your steering to stay in control. I really feel that moment quite clean in the FFB (Standard, no custom FFB file) and it's key of the fun when being of the edge of the limit of a car. I remember there was some report that pedal calibration is buggy in AMS2, don't know if that was fixed. But maybe open a topic about your inputs where you show your settings and the Reiza support guys like Marius can help figuring out why your pedals are working quite binary

Just checked a recorded session in Simhub, just to showcase that you can indeed apply your inputs very clean in AMS2 if the pedals do what they are suppsed to (ignore my wobbly braking here, it's just a quick example)

 

Personally, I find AMS2's physics very refined and realistic on dry surfaces, less so on wet ones. It remains one of my favorite sims and the best in terms of steering feel. I use a custom FFB. I have a good feel for the cars and don't have any strange sensations of slipping. It depends a lot on the setup you use because you can completely change the car's behavior, and I like that. The high-downforce cars feel very glued to the ground, and when you reach the limit, they're obviously more abrupt, and the time to correct them is short, but that way, it's realistic.

 

There feels like there's something not quite right with the Ligier JSP4 (the prototype style one, not the little GT one), it's INCREDIBLY twitchy in the rear end. I haven't had time to get any telemetry together but to me it feels like it's either the differential locking the rear axle way too hard/suddenly, or maybe some kind of weird aero imbalance.
Like, the car will just let go and try to spin in most mid/high speed turns when on full throttle (for example Woodcote at Silverstone or exiting Pouhon at Spa) , and will then try to rotate excessively on corner exit from slow corners, even with progressive throttle application.

When I get the time I'll look into the telemetry and see if I can figure out what the deal is, if it's just me being an idiot or if there actually IS a problem.

 

It has a very unusual type of rear differential not used by any other car in AMS2. I'm not at my sim rig at the moment so I don't remember the details, but I think it uses just one configurable value which affects both power and coast behavior, and IIRC I usually lower that value a little bit to match my driving style.

 

I gave it one last try—how is it possible that with 90% ingame brake pressure and the brake pedal pressed 80% of the way down, my wheels lock up (no ABS)? In the Fantatec configurator, I have to press the brake as hard as possible until I reach 100% brake pressure, so there’s absolutely no way I could ever get locked-up wheels in-game if the HUD does show 80% brake pressure on the pedal. People can say whatever they want, but this just doesn’t make any sense.

 

It's just different implementation filosophy, on something like ACC, it seems it's calibrated so that at 100% pressure you are at the limit to what is needed ever, but on AMS2 it really depends on the car where is the point it will lock up (naturally linked to the pressure in the setup too). On some cars I can increase that pressure, on some lower it and I also tend to adjust the brake sensitivity in controller settings to be lower as it helps me to trail off more effective (if it locks up, I find you need to release the brake more, not little for the locking to easy off and it definitely helps with that).

IMO that isn't unrealistic at all, on the contrary, it's more true to life where there is no 100% braking force how much you can apply and it being calibrated somehow to a point where it would lock up.

Just lower the brake pressure and sensitivity enough that when you max your pedal, only there it's locking at the hardest braking situation (which will vary naturally).

 

Different cars lock up at different brake pressures and different road/weather conditions. What's unrealistic about that? I've experienced that driving different cars on the track IRL (240sx, E46, Miata, etc), they all required different brake pressure before they locked up.
If you have a car without ABS IRL, try hitting the brakes in dry conditions and then try hitting the brakes in wet conditions, you'll have to apply a lot less pressure to avoid front wheel lockup in the wet.

 

You will also find that in cars with high downforce, you will have to reduce the pressure on the brakes as the car slows down.

 

This is the 20th time I've installed and uninstalled AMS2, and each time I encounter the same issue with the physics of the game. When I turn at slow speeds under 60-90 degrees, I expect the car to understeer, as it usually does in all simulators. However, in this game, the car keeps turning until the clutch slips, with constant feedback that the steering wheel is empty. The car continues to rotate, and I need to turn the wheel back to center, focusing on the experience and visual deviations from the track.
This happens at speeds of 40, 60, 80, and 100 km/h. The higher the speed, the more absurd the car's behavior becomes. It's frustrating, and it doesn't happen in arcades or real life.. In games with poor FFB (force feedback), such as Assetto Corsa Competizione, the steering wheel feels like it falls into a void when the clutch is released, and the car suddenly stops turning. Although this is an unpleasant realization of the effect, I at least understand what's happening to the car. However, in AMS2, it's like being in a sensory deprivation chamber with the physics of the moon's surface.
I understand that developers have their own vision for simulation, but most simulators share some basic features. Most importantly, they should be predictable. If I switch from iRacing to Assetto Corsa or LMU, or even Forza Horizon, I don't have to relearn how to drive. I respect Reiza's work on AMS2 and consider it a result of hard work and talent. Still, I can't help mentioning this issue.

 

Can you share your Drive and Ingame Settings? Something has to be set up seriously wrong if that's how the cars drive to you.