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Reaction to Ermin's Video

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by steelreserv, Apr 22, 2021.

  1. Shriukan

    Shriukan Touristenfahrten Community Reiza Backer

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    That's his entire thing. Those who disagree with him and are somewhat passionate get immediately called fanboys. These are agent provocateur tactics to get reactions. He employs them to drive views because his fan(boy)s get a kick of seeing him call others fanboys.

    Hypocrisy 101

    Edit: He can be a funny **** sometimes. xD
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
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  2. ramsay

    ramsay Member

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    Well I watch Gm's streams regularly as they are entertaining and the chat is funny. GM doesn't take himself too seriously and that is what I like about him and the chat. He regularly times out Tortellinii who is a fast ACC "fanboy" just for the comedic effect and agree with most of his views on sim racing. For example, Iracing's business model or the over the limit behaviour etc, etc. I don't have a discussion on stream on AMS2's physics as he and others have their POV and trying to change someone's mind on a game is really an exercise in futility. You can point out settings, etc. to help but only they can decide if they like the game or not and no amount of arguing will change someone's opinion of a game it usually has the opposite effect of turning them away even more from a game as you sound like a zealot.

    I do not have though the same need or fascination with LOO (apart from FWD cars) as he does and I do not find the same issues with the game's physics as other do but that doesn't mean they are not valid. It is so easy to play one sim and gloss over issues in your own mind which others find a real major issue and by definition what a "fanboy" does is what he is getting at I think.

    His view that AC is the gold standard for FFB and physics is not one i'm in agreement with. I prefer the FFB in AMS1 and AMS2 and have found the low speed understeer in some cars in AC bloody annoying and unrealistic and the behaviour driving over kerbs which is like driving over ice (irrespective of the actual kerb design).

    As for the default setups and the majority of TT top setups are too unstable and therefore slower for me simply because if you try to push the car you end up in spinning where I prefer a car you can slightly overdrive finding the limit of grip and still recover and dial it down. I cannot drive most of the top TT setups in most classes as they just undriveable to me with too much instability so I muck around with setups by trial and error (as i'm too lazy and too thick to use telemetry) to find a car I feel comfortable driving and is fun to drive.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
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  3. tpw

    tpw Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    I have zero problem with GM and his videos, he’s actually entertaining and in this case he raises perfectly valid points in the context of his admiration for Reiza and the game in general. Yes there really are issues with off throttle oversteer, braking twitchiness and grip/slip. They need to be reported and they need to be worked on (along with numerous other physics and other quirks). GM addresses this in a style that is worlds apart from the hypocrisy and petulance of Ermin.
     
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  4. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence German localization/Testing Reiza Backer

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    To be clear about that here:

    Most of these "issues" are explainable by other things than physics quirks. They're explainable by ...physics. This doesn't mean, everything is 100% totally fine, this already starts with still several "off" default setups, but this also doesn't mean, his three points are actually results of a flawed physics system. What needs to be worked on has to be decided after actual methodical testing and not rambling in a video. The reporting value of these 3 things in a video is also relatively low, because these things are already known and under investigation all the time.
    But it's iMO true, that GM is entertaining, i also like to watch him. Always cheers me up this guy, even if he is clickbaity. :D
     
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  5. Micropitt

    Micropitt Mediocre driver doing mediocre laps

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    Sometimes I do wonder if people actually read the update release notes or the developer notes. I mean, it isn’t like Reiza developers don’t know that certain things are not working properly. With pretty much every update there are changes to physics, differential or ffb. I own AMS 2 since early access and I remember very well how it was a year ago to drive the 2019/20 Stock Car. Since then the Stock Car has come a long way which shows me that there is some serious work going on.
    I actually managed to watch the GM rebuttal video for 13 minutes before I had to turn it off because he just is to nauseating for me. He might be a good guy but his content just doesn't add anything to my daily life.
    Said all that, we all have different opinions for different reasons and that is ok.
     
  6. DaVeX

    DaVeX AMSUnofficial Staff Reiza Backer

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    99% YTbers don't care to read about development updates (they would know what was fixed and what still under development) but they are quite fast asking for keys to Devs when a new SIM is released...
    Problem about those kind of YT videos (referring to JB, GM, etc) are more on the entertainment side while others (like Erwin) are more acting they really know something while clearly not.
    I prefer Niels or Steelcast videos overall since those try to explain how physics works and how you can setup your car...
    Just look at each YTber comments section and you will really understand which is their audience target...
     
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  7. steelreserv

    steelreserv Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Do to the encouragement of some people, I decided to fulfill the prophesy.

    The response to this is "well that's not the type of LOOS" he was talking about

    And the response to that is "well that's not LOOS".

    The global question is how can other games unlock the coast ramp simply by coming off throttle and just give the car an extra 5-10 degrees of rotation AND make it stick...on the limit....

    If you're at the limit, and one wheel loses grip, you're kinda over the limit *cough*snap*cough*...am I wrong here?
     
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  8. azaris

    azaris Active Member

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    In RaceRoom, "100% closed diff" doesn't mean 0% wheel rps differentiation, it means "100% of the available potential locking is applied" (confirmed by their physics guy). So in practice many LSD cars in that sim always have slightly open diffs for realistic preload values. Here is an example of the Audi R8 EVO going through Brussels in R3E:

    diff.png

    Probably explains some of the differences in lift-off response between sims.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  9. Jefka

    Jefka New Member

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    I have to say that I absolutely get where GM is coming from. I think he makes valid arguments in a well mannered fashion and with a positive attitude. Unlike Ermin.

    Regardless of what is realistic behaviour (I'm in no position to judge that, I haven't ever entered a corner irl anywhere near the speed I do in simracing) I do feel a bit the same as GM.

    • Lift off oversteer / lift off less understeer. I don't really care about the dfinition used but where I can manipulate throttle input easily in other sims to make small entry adjustments I find it much more difficult in AMS2 to get a similar controlled response. Dunno if it's more or less realistic but I do think that for the majority of simracers it feels good to have that control so having a similar repsonse will probably add to more satisfied users.
    • Setups. I understand that with the gazillion track/car combo's it's a heck of a job to catr for specific well balanced setups for everything. At the same time, the majority of the simracers (I think) do not want to spent a gazillion hours in setups either. Sure, I tweak setups every now and then. But mainly I either use a stock setup that is actually very decent (ACC) or use someone else's setup that gives a really nice baseline. The amount of cars/tracks in AMS is awesome but it is also a bit overwhelming knowing that for each combo I have to actually spent quite a bit of time in setups to get the "sort of optimal" experience. Personally I feel that it is worth the time/money investment from a development pov to get this done. You have the very fanatic simracers but what I see around me (including myself) is that the vast majority of simracers are lazy and don't want to spent much time in setups. A.k.a. it's understandable but it's still a major drawback that stock setups are sub-optimal.
    • Braking. I love that there's a huge difference between cold and warm tyres, as there should be. I don't have massive complaints about the braking tbh but yes it is a bit more fiddly to get right compared to other sims.
    Overall I love AMS2. I get the impression GM does aswell. Erwin loved it, then hated it, then loved it then...yeah well he's Ermin. In the end I'm one of those simracers that loves AMS2 but hardly play it. That's mainly due to a) being lazy (read: limited time) not wanting to spent to much time in setups and b) multiplayer being lackluster atm. I have a feeling I'm not the only one like that, I'll just patiently wait :)
     
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  10. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

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    Jesus christ so much drama over youtube :D ... i mean ... fortunately everyone is quite well behaved but still, 1 hour of talking about other people talking, I couldnt do more than 5mins of each video.

    Regarding the LOOS.
    In order to be able to "feel" the ramp angles work in GT3 for example, you need to reduce the viscous locking and also preload quite a bit, in AMG, thats at least 30 preload and max 50 viscous to get some kind of balanced lock/unlock and then play with the angles and you can get a nice LOOS if you want that, it works but preload and viscous intereferes. I also dont get why we get the option to even adjust viscous locking on modern cars with plate LSD.

    Problem comes in for Retro and vintage formula cars, they have LSD but you cant adjust viscous lock or there is some other issue with preload maybe. Basically, in retro McLaren for example, even the most extreme "open" LSD setting doesnt open the diff unless you get below 80kmh or so, which is just weird and according to Maser and his friend, it doesnt behave that way, not to mention the actual setting, even at much higher preload, more plates lower coast ramp angle, the cars didnt have a problem to turn in during the race. So unless you go real slow, you understeer into oblivion in these cars. And no other games have this issue, would you say AMS2 is the only game/sim in the world that is realistic? Especially when people who used to drive these cars say the opposite?
     
  11. Fizzy

    Fizzy Active Member Reiza Backer

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    @steelreserv

    The obvious way to resolve this disagreement: youtuber boxing match ;)
     
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  12. DaVeX

    DaVeX AMSUnofficial Staff Reiza Backer

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    Well some says no but some others says yes (specially the ones driving on BR championships).
    Just some guessing...
    AC, 1 contact point tyre model (car spinning like on/off, kerbs of death, etc)
    ACC moving from 1 point contact to 5 for the same issues as above (still not refined as should, etc)
    AMS1 based on ISI Rfactor engine, still good but same problems as AC when you feel loosing the car it is too late (but better ffb of the 3)
    rF2 best tires model so far even if you can exploit it easily (GT3 drifting all over the place as example)
    AMS2 ideally on par with rF2 but differential is a pain in the ass for Reiza but they are fixing it somehow...
    So basically every sim is different and behave in a different manner, some can be fixed working on same setups parameters others need a different kind of tweak so...
    YES GM you need to adapt based on the SIM the simple fact 3 of 4 works Inna similar way doesn't mean it is correct because as you can see every software is different and simulate things in a different way, some in a similar way but others with a different approach....but this doesn't mean is wrong overall....
     
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  13. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

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    I meant specifically Retro-formula cars, like I said GT3 feel more on par after setup tuning.
     
  14. DaVeX

    DaVeX AMSUnofficial Staff Reiza Backer

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    No no, just quoting you as incipit of my post :D
     
  15. CorvusCorax

    CorvusCorax Member Reiza Backer

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    You forgot to mention Ermin's bigotry ;)
     
  16. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    You were too polite and didn't provide a link. The conversation above carried on as though this didn't exist...



    Nice succinct presentation, also :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  17. steelreserv

    steelreserv Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    I wish I had wheel spin data...but I have to us what I have.
     
  18. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    We shouldn't.

    But remember the starting point was PC 2's "provide every diff option for every car" as a kludge to avoid doing the hard work that Reiza has been undertaking for a year plus to sort out all these diff and diff-connected issues. Most people just used the same favourite diff on every car, even if it was unreal.

    I believe that as things progress and settle the remaining unrealistic or unavailable in real life options will get snipped, just as many have already been eliminated over time (recall we used to be able to use a spool on open diff cars if we wanted to!). In the meantime, they can be helpful to play with to diagnose some behaviours.
     
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  19. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence German localization/Testing Reiza Backer

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    Wouldn't sudden peaks in wheelspeed data like tire fire reveal wheelspin at least a bit? :)
     
  20. Maser V6

    Maser V6 Old School. Enjoying AMS2.. ASSISTS OFF RACING Reiza Backer

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    'Problems' oddities yes are still there but diminished thankfully but track specific still ie long sweepers as apposed to tight turns. Preload changes +others, over recent updates have improved things as I have mentioned and others elsewhere, but not eliminated fully imo.

    REF BT44
    **Ethan Shippert the real life engineer and race driver of the Bt44 has to be regarded as a valid source of feedback. Thanks for the reminder.


    Agreed and ongoing, I would say 'power and transmission line inc lag' issues as the seemingly % per car specifics are tweeked. I am and remain very optimistic, and enjoying also.
    Sidenote.
    Thankfully the tubers chose gt3's not Retros!.
    Seen enough inc bits of todays live stream stuff. gm.
    New Month very soon:)
     

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