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Really not a fan of this new engine protection

Discussion in 'Automobilista - General Discussion' started by GrimDad, Mar 21, 2016.

  1. P*Funk

    P*Funk Active Member

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    @Marc Collins this is turning into one of those stupid things where you're not even trying to see what I'm saying, you're just locked into posturing.

    The discussion above re. the Formula V12 involved @Jan Mikuž mentioning that the new protection rejected downshifts at Montreal Historic on the final chicane. I went and drove that and said hey maybe there is something weird or its too excessive but quickly realized that it wasn't a problem on my end or in the general modeling of the features, whatever else may in fact be bugged in other people's circumstances. My conclusion in this situation is partly me responding to my own comment so that people don't think I'm saying there is a bug based on my feelings.

    I explained that even if the downshift protection is working properly, ie. limiting you to 17000 RPM on downshifts, you still can't drive the final chicane as easily as before so even if someone is facing individual issues with downshift protection those not experiencing issues should still be hamstrung in that particular corner meaning Montreal Historic will mess with people either way, bug or not. Some people may then perceive they're suffering this declared bug when they're simply attempting a bad downshift.

    Its easy for some to try to downshift too early and get debounce and then in the delay end up at a lower downshift RPM and think its a bug/wrong feature when its just them being out of sync with the correct downshift rhythm.

    I never said people aren't having problems, I'm just relating what I concluded about one individual corner and how it works with the new features. I have a hard time however understanding how this feature could be bugged for individuals if they have done a Steam integrity check.

    Best thing people should do is simply come up with a simple chart of the highest speeds for downshifting each gear with default set up to end up at the limiter and see if someone coasting who says they have this issue can downshift at those speeds. Its pretty much impossible to accurately track the exact RPM when driving at full speed. To conclusively determine its an actual bug people need to isolate the issue from driving the track as they normally do so that we can be sure their driving habits aren't the culprit.

    So far nothing people have contributed about the alleged bugs is particularly empirical. We ought to science it up before we declare it a mystery worthy of dev support.
     
  2. pj059

    pj059 New Member

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    Hi,

    Not sure if my problem is related to what's discussed in this topic, as I'm not expert at all regarding car mechanics and I'm fairly new to simracing.
    With the new engine protection system I can't start properly with some sequential cars. I tried the Marcas and I just can't start in 1st gear from Neutral (with autoclutch off).
    Whenever I hit the clutch when on neutral, the engine stays at low rpm and the throttle does nothing, which makes impossible to start (if I go in 1st and release the clutch, the engine stalls because of low rpm). But from neutral, going in 2nd and then going back in 1st makes the engine throttle again. This sounds pretty weird to me.
    Thanks for entlightening me :)

    Sorry for the blurry explanations, english is not my native language :s
     
  3. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Yes, that is a bug we have been talking about here, though it likely has nothing to do with engine protection. Was that still happening in the latest build that just came out. Hope not. And just to test, if you enable auto-clutch, is all OK? That cures it for others.
     
  4. pj059

    pj059 New Member

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    Thanks for your answer.
    My problem still occurs even with the latest 0.8.9r update.
    About autoclutch, I think it cures the problem indeed, but I have to retry and confirm that.
     
  5. pj059

    pj059 New Member

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    To complete my previous post:
    Setting Auto-clutch to on fixes the problem: I can throttle correctly with 1st gear in and the clutch fully hit.
     
  6. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Hmmmm, still a bug, then. I suspect Reiza will get to it pretty quickly (next build). They were unfortunately distracted for the past couple of weeks with other matters :(
     
  7. pj059

    pj059 New Member

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    Yes indeed. I would just like to be sure they are aware of this bug, maybe post on the bug report thread ?
     
  8. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    Yep its a known bug - we´ll squash it soon.
     
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  9. pj059

    pj059 New Member

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    Hi Renato,
    I am very glad to hear that :) Thanks for your answer.
     
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  10. AndyS

    AndyS New Member Reiza Backer

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    @Renato Simioni
    What I don't understand is why this shift protection is in use to begin with, most race cars have a "rev limiter" to protect the top end and/or engine from over revving and damage, not a makeshift component that restricts how you drive and downshift.
    So why not just apply a rev limiter, same as a pit speed limiter in most cases which will solve this issue.
    In addition, this shift protection function, which all the top sims seem to be adopting is hardly adding to the realistic values of Simulated racing. I have been simracing for 18yrs so Im pretty set in my driving style, but this shift protection is affecting how I drive and I'm not impressed that I have to adopt an unnatural style to compensate for a function that rarely exists in most race cars.
    I don't know of many real world race cars that have this function, not that Ive gone looking I must admit. Most of my theory is based on V8SC as I'm an Aussie, and Aussie V8's "don't" have shift protection, they limit them with a rev limiting valve which cuts in @ 7.500rpm and protects the engine, but damage can still occur if they downshift to fast, as they can then do valve train damage, but this is rare.

    I'm sure you and the talented group you have around you can come up with a better system, one that replicates reality, like a rev limiting valve, instead of taking the same path as the rest of the Devs in the sim-racing genre and implementing a function that isn't active or technically realistic in many real world race cars.

    Cheers
     
  11. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    It is variously in real race cars and so far, not counting the bugs that have cropped-up, the additions to the drive train modelling have all been good steps closer to realism. You can't slam a sequential gear box into first gear without using the clutch. You can't (and shouldn't anyway except in the most extreme and rare circumstances) downshift with no regard to over-revving the engine.

    If there are situations where it's not letting you downshift at low/safe rpms, it's either a temporary bug, or, it's the design of the car. Again, you can't downshift to first gear either at all or at higher rpms in many race cars without using the clutch. That's why race cars are geared to rarely or never need first gear except at launch.

    What exactly is the behaviour that you think is unrealistic? Please be car- and situation-specific.
     
  12. AndyS

    AndyS New Member Reiza Backer

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    @Marc Collins
    As I stated in my post, my reference is to the superV8, Im an Aussie and have watched these cars develop for 25+yrs, (I'm 55 in case your wondering). I can say without hesitation that Aussie V8's Do Not have downshift protection, they run a rev limiting valve that engages @ 7,500RPM to stop top end/engine damage from over revving, but if the engine is over revved during downshift, and it has happened, it will hurt the engine, by damaging the valve train.

    Abusing the car/gearbox is a risk that you take as a driver, and 9 out of 10 times damage is the result of uncontrolled downshifting.

    Personally I feel that many sim racers want these things in place due to not understanding or having race craft, and think they can thrash through the gears of a sequential box without consequence. If you know how to manage a car you also know that you must wash of a little speed via the brakes before you can down shift & blip the throttle to rev match the gearbox and engine.

    Many older real world cars don't have these functions and I feel that having them in these older cars is taking the realism away, if it's a function in a real world car I'm happy to see it, but please, adding them to cars that never had them to begin with is disappointing.

    Cheers
     
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  13. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Right, but with all the complaints some of us go try crashing down through the gears in a car-damaging manner and AMS lets us. What is the reason? I will go test V8s right now, but have already gone through this with other vehicles that were claimed to be a problem and they allow unfettered downshifting on my installation. I'll report back either eating my words or to confirm all is well.
     
  14. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    As expected, there is ZERO downshift protection on the V8. I could downshift with my foot to the floor while bouncing off the rev limiter. Meaning, not only would I be damaging the engine by downshifting, I was already exceeding or at the very limit of where I should have been BEFORE downshifting. This is probably unrealistically lax towards the other extreme.

    However, the V8 does suffer from the throttle problem that Renato confirmed was a known bug. So is that causing problems on other configurations that don't exist on mine? Maybe. But for the twentieth time, if it is, it is because of a bug not because Reiza is designing unrealistic drive train models. They are just the opposite.

    People were referring to downshifts not being allowed until very moderate rpms. Is that what is happening when you drive the V8? Be specific.
     
  15. P*Funk

    P*Funk Active Member

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    I think that we will only see engine protection come into its own as a mature and properly understood simulation feature when proper engine damage is represented.
     
  16. Jan Mikuž

    Jan Mikuž Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Can someone make a list of cars, which have engine protection implemented, please.
    I just tried the Camaro SS and i can't downshift into 3rd, 2nd until i drop the rpm considerably below the red range. Feels very restrictive and don't know if it's a bug or if it's the engine protection in effect.

    Cheers
     
  17. P*Funk

    P*Funk Active Member

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    With that car I'd assume that you needn't worry about being at such low revs because of how much torque the engine puts out.
     
  18. Jan Mikuž

    Jan Mikuž Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Sure, but is it a bug or is so by design ?
    I drove the Camaro before this last update and i obviously wasn't bothered by it or I'd post here.

    Looking at the old UI (not dynhud) speedo the area where it lets me downshift to 3rd and 2nd is ca. 3 longer white lines below the red area.
    It doesn't seem right.
     
  19. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Wow. The Camaro has an automatic transmission. It shifts by itself and is already programmed to downshift at the earliest appropriate rpms to keep the engine in racing/maximum acceleration mode (not the way it would shift normally on the street).

    No, you would never downshift such a big, relatively low-revving and high torque engine while above 3 white ticks below the red area because there would be no useful reason to do so besides causing unnecessary wear, noise and fuel consumption. You won't gain any acceleration or power. All automatic transmission cars have this sort of lock-out feature to prevent mistaken shifts (or hooligans purposely trying to so something stupid) from causing a safety hazard. How is it a safety hazard? Someone who doesn't understand how to shift gears (most people in North America who buy automatic cars) might think that under emergency acceleration they would gain by shifting down further, when they would not. So the car prevents that mistake. ABS brakes are the same technology, only for stopping. A skilled driver can stop shorter manually, without ABS, but the majority who don't know what they are doing are aided because otherwise the tendency is to panic and lock all the wheels, losing control and lengthening the stopping distance.

    You can manually override the Camaro's auto shifting with paddles or a sequential stick, but honestly since it is programmed for racing mode, the only benefit to manual override is to UPSHIFT it sooner for those times you are not 100% racing and pushing the car. Like in the pits or during a cruise/test drive.
     
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  20. Jan Mikuž

    Jan Mikuž Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Haha, am i expected to know all this stuff ? :D
    Cheers, Marc, this was quite informative. I currently have the autoshifting turned off. May as well switch it to auto mode and see how that works. Not a fan, though, since i find autoshifting limits my experience. But if the RL car is designed and setup to run in auto mode, so be it. :)
     

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