Slicks tyres grip in rain & other problems in AMS2

I think it's in human nature to concentrate more and more on the little faults over time, until the problems are all we can see. Simulations are so complex that there will always be noticeable faults. But some of these weather issues make the features unusable, which goes beyond little annoyances. Personally I am fine with just doing summer afternoon races when using AI, but it is frustrating that these broken features are available in the game.

I learned this the hard way myself. I tried to do a race at Donington in February, not thinking about the extremely cold track temperature. The AI was zipping around like normal, and I could barely complete a lap without sliding off the track.

Again, I just don't use weather features at all because they don't really work with AI, but it would be cool if I could actually use these features that are part of the game. If weather is an important feature for you, I can see how AMS2 would be a very frustrating experience.

 

It's a good starting point for a lot of sim racers to race against the AI in any sim... And that's about it... In the cases of a lot of sims the developers were forced to run the AI on different physics or be stuck with only offering small grids for racing against the AI with...

As drivers evolve they look for better challenges in sim racing or move on to a different hobby because the AI in any sim is a canned experience that after some time becomes too easy to control the entire narrative of a race with... And for a long time ACC had the opposite issue of AMS2, where Kunos got the AI overtaking each other however the AI was too cautious to overtake the player...

The AI in ACC is not something highly regarded, because they are easily gamed and therefore boring to race against... Which is one of the reasons it's far more popular as a MP experience than an SP experience, it's not just the nature of the market it takes on another level with ACC because the offline element is terrible... If the AI does indeed run on the same physics as the player than a canned experience is as best as you can hope for... AI that thinks enough to be believable just will not be possible with the set up ACC has and AC2 will no doubt have the AI on different physics to the player...

 

I don't think it is completely accurate observation. One of the pillars of simracing games of old was realistic single player mode, despite the fact those games gave possibility to multiplayer racing (for example GP2 or GTR 2). It is also one of the strenght of F1 series (where I can casually turn on career mode and immerse myself in My Team or Career seasons), and also Project Cars 2 (which in fact is predecessor of AMS 2, where you get big and developed career mode). I like multiplayer, but it doesnt't mean I don't want solid, immersive single player with functioning AI, especially given the fact that aforementioned single player, when done right, can provide me with opportunity to play out full seasons of motoracing series without pressure that is inevitable with multiplayer rivalry.

 

Sim racing of old was always focussed more on the SP side due to the lacking global infrastructure required for a decent MP experience...

However since 2010 MP has been the most popular side of sim racing...

It's that pressure you speak of that carries the MP side higher than the single player side... As drivers get more competitive and want more out of their experience on track they end up doing the MP side more often than the SP side...

Sure there are others who want the features that are in an F1 game, and I enjoy those features as well... There's just always a point where I get bored with gaming the AI on track and look for a better on track experience which can only be found in an online environment... Polls and discourse over new sims in development show that it's a majority that think this way...

 

Not quite sure where you draw that info from. Just right now I checked both AMS2 and RF2. Both have about 350 players listed as in game, yet each has maybe 50 people in a server. AC has an even bigger discrepancy so it doesn't appear you are basing this on facts at all.

 

I base my perceptions about what happens on the forums around any new game... And I've been around for the start of a lot of games since 2010... There is a market for a decent SP title I'm not denying that, now that the F1 series is failing that market is growing as well and it would be great if AMS2 could fill at least some of that void... However that's always behind a large audience of people wanting a solid multiplayer experience and polls show that a good MP experience comes first... Rennsport and GTR Revival already see similar patterns and I expect that to be same with AC2 like it was for ACC and AC before it... iRacing didn't even bother with an offline mode before becoming the most popular...

As for those steam counts, they don't separate the modders testing out various things (Checking skins and testing AI files for AMS2 also count, both are very time consuming) which adds to the discrepancy of the figures of the amount of players that aren't in a server... And in AC the modding scene has led to the open world stage, so there's a lot more to test... And also explore... Plus there's a lot of leagues doing testing of those mods for their championships so they can avoid the bad mods and have series without hiccups because of badly designed mods...

I'm not saying there's no one playing SP, or that the majority of those numbers aren't playing SP in some shape or form... I'm playing SP as well, but once I've gamed the AI and want a better challenge, I'm playing SP to practice for upcoming online championship events far more often than setting up for offline championships... Because there's always a limit to the AI that makes me want to race a real human... And I feel that's a natural progression for most sim racers due to the discourse around each new game I've been around...

As good as AMS2's AI are, they are some of the best when it comes to thinking around the player... They have too many limits for me to enjoy anything other than sprints with them because I don't want to turn off simulation elements to have the same physics as them... With humans and a bit of luck with the p2p (plus a lot of hard prep work by the hosts) I've enjoyed Grand Prix length races and longer with full simulation...

 

To be honest I've had fantastic single player experience in many Sims and racing games over the years , have been gaming since 1980 so there aren't many games I haven't played.The ai having the same physics as the player really isn't necessary as long as the ai is consistent and well balanced. This is the problem with ams2 right now though, no consistency from track to track and one weather condition to another, in the state it's in right now for a single player experience it makes championships, live track and changing weather redundant imo .

 

I mostly agree with you, but AI inconsistency is part of every racing game/sim I have played, sometimes its just a case of the player being better on a certain track, others lts the AI. At least AMS2 lets you adjust the AI strength on a race by race basis even on a championship season.

Thats why I still enjoy doing championships with all the features AMS2 has, I just play around with the settings and strength until its good, not ideal but better than nothing. It would be good like someone said to be able to eliminate the thunderstorm weather slot, to avoid puddle ridden soaked track, thats the only really unplayable scenario in my case against the AI.

Lets just hope that by the time the game is "finished" we dont have to go through the hassle of messing with the settings and the AI is more consistent overall and less OP on the wet.

 

Yes it was me that suggested being able to disable certain weather slots , would help massively until the ai are configured to be hindered by puddles and soaked tracks as much as the player is .

 

I think the general race behaviour of AMS2 AI is pretty decent, and respect to Renato and crew for getting it there. With a huge roster of cars and tracks I can totally accept the fact that there will be track to track and class to class variation in AI. What’s more difficult to deal with is that although AMS2 has inherited and or developed some pretty sophisticated systems to simulate a racing environment, the AI either ignores them or reacts so differently to them that they may as well not be there:
Tyre wear
Tyre temperatures
Track temperature
Track rubber
Track limits
Puddles
Penalties
Wet weather
Weather transitions
Collisions
Aero damage
Fuel load
Fog and darkness
Practise and quali
Etc

As an exclusively sp person (there are lots of us), all I want is to feel that my opponents are constrained by the same factors as me. For a 5 lap quick race in dry and unchanging conditions, the illusion is more or less there. That’s about it.

 

I think it's an issue of developer resources at this point. The AMS2 AI already possesses the most important quality for AI: they don't crash into you randomly, and they even avoid collisions. The AI is actually really good at this, which enables novices to learn the basics of racing, and even advanced racers to have some good battles. In fact, AMS2 has a reasonable claim to being the best single player sim racing experience for many people (such as me).

Multiplayer is in a considerably more dire state - nobody thinks that AMS2 is the best choice for multiplayer racing outside of self-organized leagues. Maybe Reiza will decide to lean into single player and make that the real selling point of AMS2. But probably they need to concentrate more on making MP somewhat competitive, with LFM integration or something else. So my guess is that we will have to live with these issues for some time.

 

Resources have definitely held this game back. I would actually say they should focus specifically on single player now. They HAD a fantastic window where AMS2 was the shiny new toy and could have taken over. Now that window is going to be closing with Rennesport and AC2 on the horizon, both of which will eat AMS2 alive in multiplayer because they have a bigger focus on it. So maybe build out a robust single player, fix all the damn bugs and dominate that space. It is definitely not what I wanted for AMS2 but it is what it is.

 

Resources also include the amount of CPU power left on the average users system after the player physics are computed, hence the AI are on different physics... Which obviously leave AI upgrades out in the cold until the average user has enough CPU power to handle the AI on a better physics platform...

It's not like Reiza hasn't had a lot of these physics for the AI in the past... Therefore there is a limitation with the CPU resources or within the Madness engine that will hold back advances in the AI for some time to come... So the focus for now should be on the MP side which doesn't need extra resources... Which Reiza finally seem committed to at least trying to get things running smoother with Just Race...

Rennsport is looking to be a mix of iRacing and ACC for now... And is years away from being something that could challenge AMS2 with a decent MP experience...

AC2 isn't even close to a public BETA...

 

It wouldn't take a lot to "challenge AMS2 with a decent MP experience" given it is losing to Rfactor2 in the battle for dead last. If Reiza haven't figured it out in 3 years of full release and even longer in beta...how soon do you expect MP to be robust? Another year? 2 years? That puts AC2 on the market according to their stated dates and unlike Reiza, they have the size of team to make their deadlines.

 

Given that Reiza has spent time working on the AI during that time and haven't touched the MP code at all, they could find a solution to the MP experience within 6 months now that they are focussed on it... 2 years from now AC2 could still be in the mess that ACC was initially or worse due to the new engine and all the development that comes with that...

How long before you think the average user has enough CPU left over for the AI to run on better physics? That could be 5 years or more... And if there's another global recession add another 5 to that...

And if it's a Madness limitation, then the AI might of hit a ceiling that could take years to break through as well...

 

This isn't about "leftover CPU" as you can still have reasonable ai on different physics. To say they haven't touched MP code is factually incorrect as they have already lowered the "time to join" setting. Renato himself has said a few times that AMS2 may never compete with other MP sims so that isn't a good start. They have said they are confident about a robust single player so why not build to your strengths? This is the head guy saying these things. What if they can't build it (mp experience)and it's a massive rewrite project? No different than your CPU argument. They leaned into single player initially so why not finish it? They have literally said they aren't sure they can provide a robust Mp experience and all I am saying is maybe finish one thing and polish it instead of making every type of user dissatisfied.

 

Completely agree with you, they should focus on making a rock solid single player experience, they have the foundation to build a pretty comprehensive single player career mode. So in my humble opinion if they can manage to calibrate the AI among all classes and tracks, fix as many bugs as they can, complete the features they said where coming like track lights when yellow flags, marshals, endurance features (hope the ability to save mid race is one), career mode,etc. Then they can even release the game on consoles and focus on improving multiplayer.

If the main goal for the game is being the best single player racing game, they should focus on it. Yes it's a niche, but if well done and marketed, it can be a successful one. The key in all this is time, if they manage to do it on schedule it could work, if they miss the current gen of consoles, it will be tough.

 

Good point. The bugs absolutely need to be fixed. It really kills any enjoyment of the game in both SP and MP.

 

A small tweak to a timer is not comparable to the considerable effort that has gone into the AI to date in AMS2...

Reiza have had plenty of titles where they have shown they can do all the little things well with AI... So of course they'd be confident they can do it for AMS2... But to date have struggled to do so with the Madness engine... It's taken them years just to get the AI to think clearly around the player and have drafting effects... It could therefore be years before we see additions to the code, like fuel weights for the AI...

Unlike AI, Reiza have no experience on how to improve an MP code because the Gmotor2 engine had a robust experience packed in with it... So of course they wouldn't be as confident about fixing the MP side... They have nothing to show themselves they can do it...

And whilst I agree that Reiza should focus on polishing the game to it's fullest and ironing out bugs... Given that the major AI calibrations will be left until after the physics is locked up and in it's final state anyway, it's best to focus on areas that can make a big difference now without having to redo the work when the physics get updated...

Another thing to keep in mind is that Reiza had been very quiet on the MP side until recently, leaning into that confidence theory of yours, there's a very good chance that there's been a realisation about the limitations of the SP side and the need to bring the MP up to date so that at least one side of the coin can enjoy AMS2's endurance content to the fullest...

I've seen reported a few times that mid race saves are impossible in the Madness engine for the same reason that the replay functionality is terrible... The live track... And without a mid race save function all that endurance content is wasted on the SP side...

All of this points to a smoother MP experience being the best content to add to the sim, alongside squashing current bugs (not missing features) will bring AMS2 into the forefront of a majority of sim racers minds... Rather than being the pCARS 2 clone that many still think it is...

Whilst AMS2 could be the spiritual successor to TOCA Race Driver 3 (which I would adore) there's a lot of evidence to suggest that it's years away from being more than able to enjoy sprint races in it offline...

 

This issue is totally ruining any race which includes dry to wet transition for me. If I wanted dry only boredom I would pick up R3E or iR... but one of major reasons to pick up AMS2 over and over again for me is the weather system.
Unfortunately one single lap on slicks on wet track before I make it to pits is end of the race. The car is basically uncontrollable - which I would accept if AI slowed the same way. But they just keep going like on rails.