To Reiza: What physics do you actually want?

Yes, tyre slip values in Shared Memory are wrong ever since and probably an heritage from Pcars. BUT if you're using SimHub to activate transducers, your troubles may have gone!
There's a plugin to solve this issue, the correct tyre slips are calculated and I suppose they can be passed to the transducers.

PS: Unfortunatly this will take no effect to the slipage sound ingame.

 

Incredibly interesting thread this , I really hope Reiza are reading these posts because I reckon they are some of the most relevant and important posts on this forum in ages !
I have to say I totally agree with the opening post , it's something I've got used to but have always felt is not quite right.
It's certainly a complex issue and guess there are multiple reasons why some of us feel this way , for me I've always felt a fundamental lack of grip from front and rear on most cars , I know this has been mentioned many times by certain popular YouTubers and I have to agree unfortunately.
Throttle response has never felt right either but again it's something I've adapted too . The diffs are weird too for sure but I tell you what almost sorted this issue for me was changing to a custom ffb file, it completely ironed out the tank slapping characteristics of the super V8 and other higher powered cars .
Absolutely love the SIM overall but really do feel it could be so much better physics wise .

 

Omg im going to try right now thx!

 

I tried adding this to simhub which was fine but then I tried to add a custom effect under shakeit bass shakers and selecting the different wheels to the effect settings. It didn't produce any data so I'm sure I'm doing it wrong since I've never added a custom effect before.

 

i find a lot of cars in ams2 lose rear traction too easily, most cars feel very very loose and not likw a race car on slicks, even the tc can't stop cars feeling like drift machines, the new mclarens are much better in this regard, i thought they would be undrivable but have much better rear grip

 

My wishlist of things to get addressed:

1. ABS/TC still don't function properly. TC kills acceleration but doesn't stop the rear from flopping around even at 10. ABS still allows lockups below 8 on a dry track. Example: McLaren Senna

2. Brake response is pretty abrupt in some cars, leading to instant spins when braking in a straight line without locking. Often because the default brake ducts are too closed in the front. Example: Nissan R89C

3. Aero is too efficient and running low downforce is almost never worth it, and yaw doesn't seem to reduce downforce enough. It feels like there's an excessive self-aligning aero torque present. Example: Formula USA Gen 1/2/3

4. Street tyres feel too mushy like they're already worn out of the pits. Example: McLaren Senna

5. Tyre spin does not happen easily in all cars or stops immediately and the car just grips (and flops sideways). Example: many GT cars

6. Some older FWD cars go instantly from being on rails to being sideways when entering corners (and not in a controllable LOOS way). Example: All the FWD in Copa Classic B

7. Some cars feel like it's very hard to get the weight to transfer to the front, leading to general feeling of understeer and helplessness. Example: Formula Vintage Gen 1/2

8. Some rare cars feel truly bizarre. Example: Stock Car Omega 1999

9. Default diffs have too high # of clutches and preload, leading to the dreaded "tight on entry, loose on exit" driving feel. Example: many

10.Default ARBs are too hard in front and too soft in the rear, making the cars feel tight overall and then the rear slops out as soon as you get on power. Example: many

 

Interesting. It seems to me like the Ultima GTR Road has been trying to kill me with sudden rear-end twitches on power in 3rd gear at high RPM (which means 200km/h), ever since Early Access up to 1.4.3.x. But with the new street tire carcasses in 1.4.5.2, I now have much more time to feel that the car is about to lose grip during which I can reduce throttle to avoid disaster. So I have the exact opposite impression – finally this car is relatively controllable ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

As i said 1000 times ,do a complete reinstall and compare after.If nothing had changed for you you can still complain.
The most useres seem to have less problems with the physics except the oval racing and the street/hyper cars.

 

I know this advice has been thrown around and it works often, but this is an absurd request, tbh...

- Honey, the shower ain't workin.
- Don't you worry my love, I'll put down the whole house and rebuild it from scratch to fix this!

 

Spoken like a true politician, And no, this is not meant to be sarcastic or derrogatory and i thank you for addressing me.

But actually the CART cars on ovals are the least of my concerns. My Avatar comes from the fact that maybe my most famous body of work in modding comprises 80s indycars. As such, i know for a fact that such thing is not easy to simulate, and requires quite a bit of knowledge and trial and error to get right. Of course now i know what works and what doesn't, but alas, i dont work for Reiza, so my knowledge stays with me i guess.

No, the problem is exactly what you mention, cars like the retros, or the formula classics, that have been there from day 1, and were already there in AMS1.

I reiterate what i said about directionless because that's exactly what it feels, if i recall all the changes and updates that these cars had. And after 3 years of this game being in development, i still have no idea what the physics team wants from them, and i feel, in my opinion, that they are actually worse than what we had in Pcars2, so this is not an engine issue.

So because maybe my definition of worse is radically different from the physics team, this is why the title of the thread is this, what do the physics team/person wants from these cars, and cars in general, and are we close to that or not? Because quite honestly, if i had 3 years to work on something, i can say with a lot of confidence that after that long, whatever it was would be at least pretty much defined in terms of what i want to achieve.

Just to add to what i said, what shocks me more is the lack of actual true wheelspin in every car accross the board. Just try to do a burnout in a straight line even with one of the formula classics, and its like the tires are incredibly grippy longitudinally, to then be incredibly easy to overwhelm them laterally. It makes no sense to me, and like i said, its basically devolving the physics, because i know for a fact that getting true wheelspin without sending the car around instantly was something not easy to achieve in AMS1, but very much possible to achieve in Pcars2.

And because i dont want to talk purely in abstracts, i gave a clear example of a car combo that i feel is better in Pcars2.

But once again, thank you for addressing me.

 

I think in the last 6 months, ever since the major tyre updates started rolling out, Reiza have been clear in stating that "these physics are our intention and what we have been chasing"...

For me the physics are great now and leave every other title I've tried in the dust, I'll see what Rennsport has to offer, but nothing else comes close, hence I get so vocal about the MP experience being so out of date... Nothing really conveys the feel of the entire car in the same way... It reminds me of a better feel of the early Assetto Corsa before that went too grippy and arcade like...

I need to tune the defaults because of the exit corner snap oversteer that exists on the default set up of many cars sends me spinning off into the grass all too often and then tune the corner entry understeer out of the defaults so I can find speed...

And for me to be so positive about a title running the Madness engine after the complete joke that was what I found in the pCARS series in terms of physics it's an absolutely astonishing achievement... Tuning a car makes sense in the Madness engine now... And even with the default settings and a lower steering range most cars make sense, unlike in pCARS where nothing felt right or like any other sim I had tried that car in...

The only real negative within the current physics for me is the long time Madness engine bug of forcing a reset to defaults to get rid of anything weird going on in the physics... It's usually something that slows you down, or turns a car that is tuned to a track into a drift car that just wants to slide... But it's such a game breaking experience for those who do not know a simple click and it's gone that it turns a lot of people off... Whilst also wasting my time as I end up running on bad physics whilst preparing for a race and having to reset to defaults and remember what I changed before the physics went wonky... Sure if I'm offline I can just restart practice and get more testing done with working physics, but if I'm online I've just wasted precious practice time before the event or part of a qualy session or worse the race...

I've learnt to treat it as a part of the damage model now where a suspension piece broke or a tyre was poorly manufactured... But it's far from ideal... And a big reason I write off other peoples bad experiences with AMS2... Because my experiences are the polar opposites of what they describe and the only times I sniff at something that they describe I hit reset to defaults and have fun again...

 

Goodness me, you have no idea of who he is!

Jesus Christ…

it is so large that 3 years have passed and the game is still terrible. I have more fun playing Project CARS 1. A project I took part in back then. Or even Automobilista 1, that game Reiza tries to destroy by sabotage on your own lobby as you update things to promote Autoslimelista 2.

Have you ever played Daytona USA? That’s how AMS 2 looks like. Don’t go to Indy. Take freaking Watkins Glen and do the bus stop on AMS 2 with any car. Then try to replicate at the same speed on any other game.
Come on…

you do sound like the captain of Titanic with this preloaded-speech-closing paragraph. Would be less of a “I’m writing this from Disneyland” kind of text if you worn some humble shoes and said “look, I know we have a lot of work to do and the team understand this. It’s unfortunate that we didn’t reach the expected goals and results yet but we want to and we will”.

I regret 500% having paid whatever I have paid for AMS 2 and its DLCs. If I could sell it for half what it costs today I’d be a happy man. And it drives me mad (in the computer universe because really, this is just a game so I have more important things to get mad at) because after 20 years in SimRacing, this is a company from my country and I would love to be backing this project as I was amazed by AMS1. But then Reiza gets PCars 2 (I think you might be using PCars 1 engine, actually…) and worsens it.

come on guys… it is hard to make a name. It is very easy to dump it… but ok, there are customers for any market, right? Some people love Gran Turismo Sport/7, some love Forza… some love AMS2.

However, some dont know what happened from version 1 to 2 because they are very different paradigms. As PCars 3 is from the rest, for instance.

Good luck.

 

Please take no offense and maybe that is not correct but you sound like you had tried PC2 on default FFB without making use of a Custom file hence bashing the Game like many have done.
I have, since the early days of PC1 (Jack Spade Custom FFB and all that), been tweaking the available parameters and been enjoying the both Games as a proper Sim on my beloved TSPC racer wheel. Yes there was variations from car to car but so it happens IRL.
I very recently bought my 1st DD wheel and after a couple of days of testing, I have managed to get it right up there close to RF2 which is my reference Sim.
Been trying to do the same with AMS2 and, especially after the latest update, cant work out the right settings and FFB adjustment to overcome what the OP has perfectly described
Its great if you have good experience with the Game, its not that great to put people down who point out its flaws, or questioning its philosophy, in a positive way

 

Offense??? What's that when you bounce off a fence???

Everything ANYONE says on a forum is subjective... I take no offence and if others take offence from me that's on them... I'm blunt by nature, I can't stop who I am, too old to do that lol... I'm just trying to state my perspective whilst being as helpful as I can from that...

I was an early backer of pCARS as well so I know the different ins and outs... It was never the FFB that was my problem, in fact the FFB is one of the reasons I was happy that Reiza chose to go down the Madness engine route when I first heard of it... Plus as a long time Gmotor2 engine runner I knew that tweaking goes a long way... ACC was virtually undrivable for me until I found the right custom FFB set up... And even after that my driving style doesn't mesh well with driving aids which in ACC you have to drive with...

The basic physics of the pCARS series is however why I was really sceptical about AMS2 being anything worthwhile when they announced that was the engine it will be on... And until this past year I was still sceptical that anything good would come of that engine... In the pCARS series I could never just get on with anything that wasn't a slow tin top... Anything with a decent amount of horsepower just felt so wrong to anything I had touched before, from GTR2 to AC, it felt more like I was playing Need for Speed or Burnout. And I just really hated all of the live track features and how they were represented... It all felt off and faked... Canned for the eye candy and not for the experience... Sure 2 was better than 1, but the experience between car and track is why I get behind the wheel at all and I just never loved my experience enough... I preferred the F1 experience from Codemasters... But rF2, AC after the community got hold of it and AMS1 were the benchmarks for many a year until this last year when AMS2 got that tyre update...

I'm on that beloved wheel of yours at the moment and will probably move to the Thrustmaster DD variants when this one cries enough, but I was on Logitech wheels back in the day when I was running the pCARS series, haven't touched it years... FFB is another area, much like the set up bug, that kills AMS2 for a lot of people, but I know very little about it or how to help for their specific wheels as I don't expect this to be the same as the pCARS series, so I don't focus on that as much... I've not had to tinker a lot to get a beautiful feel and be able to drive the cars with my right foot after getting the set up worked to my driving...

 

No one here drove the cars IRL so how do you judge wich "Sim" has the right physics?
By gut instinct...

 

The values ViperDataPlugin.CalcLngWheelSlip.Computed.LngWheelSlip_ as the doc says, can have these values:

• 0 = no slip, the tyre surface speed is the same as the car speed
• 1.0 = 100% wheel lock, the tyre surface speed is 0 and the car still moving
• -1.0 = 100% wheel spin, the tyre surface speed is twice that of the car speed. The value can be lower than -1.0.

So, I set 2 custom effects, for the wheel spin and wheel lock (and slip)
For each wheel, set the corresponent LngWheelSlip_XX:

Wheel lock and slip:

Code:

if($prop('ViperDataPlugin.CalcLngWheelSlip.Computed.LngWheelSlip_FL') > 0)
    return $prop('ViperDataPlugin.CalcLngWheelSlip.Computed.LngWheelSlip_FL') * 100

Wheel spin:

Code:

if($prop('ViperDataPlugin.CalcLngWheelSlip.Computed.LngWheelSlip_FL') < 0)
 return $prop('ViperDataPlugin.CalcLngWheelSlip.Computed.LngWheelSlip_FL') * -100

No words, amazing effect, works better than the defaults.

 

I want to add a plus one and agree about the cars sudden lateral sliding on throttle. I've never experienced such a rear lateral slide like that in track days I've done or in street driving. It's as if there's a lateral 100mph wind that as soon as the rear tires are on throttle and have a hint of loosing grip, the car, a heavy car at that, has the ability to just slide/move to the left or right. Pretty violently at that in some cars. Normally a car will sit there with the wheels spinning for a bit before it will start to list slowly to one side or the other in a predictable manor.