Vintage formulas drivability

There are many other factors to take into account before you decide something is wrong. One example is race length. In any normal F1 race the drivers are looking to make their cars, and in certain era's also the tyres, last for maybe seventy laps. If you have a ten lap race and drive like a bat out of hell to try and win within ten laps then you are naturally going to use up your tyre resources faster. Even in national club racing, like Caterham's for example, the driver who tries to win the race on the first lap spends the rest of the race conserving their tyres just to get to the end. The clever drivers use their tyres so they cross the line with nothing left, but being a sim this is the subtlety not communicated to the driver because the parameters of the game are too crude to judge this way.

 

@250swb
Generally speaking about tire conservation you are right that "overdriving" wear up the tires faster - but as I read the posts above then the discussion is if its the brake temp that is the main reason of raise in tire temp where in a more realistic approach it should be the rubber/tarmac friction that should be the main reason.
Just like it is in most(all?) other racing sims.

 

Are you saying tires don't heat-up from friction? If we do burn-outs without using the brake, they stay too cool/cold? And is this just the F-Vintage or a general problem in AMS 2?

 

I think too much is made of rubber/tarmac friction in the discussion. It seems to simply equate the tyre temperature with rubbing across the tarmac like rubbing an eraser across sandpaper. Yes this generates heat as with a burnout, and it also wears the tyres out. But with any tyre, and especially treaded tyres heat is mostly generated by the tyre carcass and tread moving but without it losing grip and sliding. So going around a corner tyre temp increases not only because it may be slipping but also because the sidewall and tread pattern is moving which generates heat. So in the older formulas that used treaded tyres if people complain that they weren't locking up or sliding so why has the tyre temp gone up so much they are missing the key to tyre temperature which is movement in the tyre carcass and tread pattern. Brake temperature is connected to overall heat build up, but only in a proportional way, so heat sink from the brakes and also increased tyre movement would make everything get hotter at Monaco than say Silverstone, so starting pressures would be adjusted to reflect this and different pad materials used.

 

I always do the same thing when a new update drops - jump in the G1M1 and clock up some Brands laps. I noticed a world of difference with the new tire model immediately, I am very pleased. When driving on the edge, my departures and moments seem to make sense now. IMHO it just feels more "right". I'm interested to hear what some of the better and more knowledgeable drivers think.

And how good is the Lotus 49C? I love it. The Brabham feels rough around the edges to me though.

 

I hope your question is caused by either yours or mine poor understanding of or expression in the english language.
Otherwise your question is completely nonsense.
If you read my posts above then I try to cook the urgent part of the discussion in this thread down to:
Does AMS2 emphasize the brake temperature as the cause of the tire temperature too much at the expense of the rubber/tarmac friction as a cause.
And I even ad:

ByTheWay: Normally I consider most of your posts here as reasonable - so I dont really want to conclude anything else based of this single nonsense question.

ByTheWay2: I can see that @250swb is able to fully understand my oppinion/posts - so I guess its not exactly my mastering of the english language that is the cause of this.

 

Thanks for not assuming I was an idiot

I was trying to find out from you if this affected only the F-Vintage or is it a general issue with AMS 2? You said AMS 2, but this is in a thread specific to the Vintage, so I wasn't sure. Maybe it is clarified somewhere in the past 11 pages, but I didn't recall.

What I can confirm is that the tire temps from doing a burn-out do not rise enough or fast enough, which also makes sense since normal track use also does not see them gain temps (as you are pointing out).

 

As I can see, everything is working, heating by friction, brake discs heat transfer and the release or dissipation of heat by rolling (the faster more dissipation).

What I think isn't working fine with the Vintage cars today, is the amount or speed of heating/dissipation and how much of the heat comes from the brakes.

This is a small experiment, making donnuts without touching the brakes, rear tire temp rises a lot, but pressure didn't change (it's even higher at the front). Different is when the heat comes from the brakes, that increases the pressure a lot, very quicly and there is no way that the driver could manage that, as could be manage friction by driving different.

That's the point with all this. Driving now is all about to adapt to the rising tire pressure generated by the brakes. There is no room for driving styles because tire friction isn't relevant, it's all about brakes and that's what have to be fixes since EA and never got addressed.

 

Do we have any intel on what tire pressure increases/differences are realistic (standing in pits versus a few laps of hard lapping)? Of course it will vary for every tire and car, but are there any rough baselines we can work with?

 

hehe OK.
But I was close my good man. Very close

Conserning this brake to tire temp issue then I only got interrested in this discussion because ealier when I heard rumors that other sims (presumably) did include such a relation - I was very sceptical.
Sceptical because when some of them cannot even get the tire friction to tire temp relation working - then I refused to buy this even more complicated relation was actually working.

ByTheWay: Hehe I can remember when the iRacing tire guru Kaemmer told us all - that only when a tire does touch the ground there can be some heat cooling transfer. Problem for him was that he forgot that there is something called atmosphere around our Earth - which principally also could have part in some heat transfer.

 

If you are correct about this then I think its pretty embarrassing that you are the only one who have discovered this.
And afcourse furthermore something that has to be adressed by Reiza.
Because do we have some kind of sim here or not?

 

Well, it's difficult to say now because the heating from the brakes masks all related to friction, so I couldn't say if friction is working at the correct speed and values.

I would like to know what devs do tests because this is really obvious after some laps, and I have wrote several posts bringing information without any change in the last four releases.

About the right pressure, I really don't know what it used to be in real life. Today the cars work and feel better than any other Vintage car I ever drove when tires are at the range of 1.25 to 1.40 bars. Over this range of pressure cars are really bad, difficult to drive, unconsistent, and feel unrealistic.

Devs should totally cut the brakes heating and test how the friction increase the pressure on the tires. Then, with that data they have to recreate the brakes. Mostly nobody uses more than 80% of brake pressure, and cooling ducts 100% open. That should be the base to create new brakes.

If tires can't work well over the 1.45 bars, then devs should create a new tire model, or reduce tire pressure increase from brakes as a workarround.

They are basically killing the "golden eggs chicken" with the tire pressure, well done cars that only can be driven for four laps in practice (because at the start of the race, the game gives you the car already with 1.40 bars)

 

Further question: is there any change to this problem in Q or Race? Do they inflate inappropriately the same no matter what session you are in as well as online and offline? If there are any inconsistencies, it could help pin-down the source of the problem(s).

 

That is actually good news. Means Reiza knows about it and can eventually fix...and just have temp settings in there now. If every car was all over the map, I would be worried that it could take many months to disentangle it all.

 

The increase seems to be the same, but at some point it stabilizes (near 1.70 1.80 bars depending the track). What it changes from practice to race and to TT, is that the game adds 0.20 bars to the tire pressure from the start.

In TT, you even can exploit it, doing a first lap slowly without braking and the rolling will reduce the pressure a bit to 1.30 instead the 1.40 you get at the start if you have the car setup set at 1.20

I understand that different cars reacts different to the rise of the pressure, but in the case of the Vintage cars where handling is based purelly on mechanic grip, this increase ruins the car setup.

I think that at race and TT tires should start warm but without the pressure increase of 0.2 bars.

 

Well, there are also inconsistencies in tire temps even in P sessions. Some cars start cold (ambient), while others are pre-warmed to some extent (and these are cars that definitely do not deploy tire warmers in real life )

I still think there are some core variables that will get settled at some point and resolve a bunch of this stuff across the board. But I could be wrong.

 

Check out the Copa Montana. Do the pressures behave as one would expect them to? As I always say, as long as at least one vehicle works properly in terms of whatever the issue happens to be, then there is not a systemic problem.