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Vintage formulas drivability

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Jonathan Spencer, May 3, 2020.

  1. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

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    Not a LSD expert :) but I think real geared LSD can have even more specific setups, like some MX5s have a 3.909:1 diff etc. its just number of revolutions of the shaft to 1 turn of the wheel ratio.
     
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  2. Damian Baldi

    Damian Baldi Member

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    I been trying these cars and hosting some races at Kyalami, I have to say that the cars are really enjoyable and they capture the feeling of Grand Prix Legends a lot better than other games.

    We are doing contantly laps of 1.18 1.19 working o the setups. What we felt is that the differential es 50% or more of the car setup, like it have too much weight on the overall setup.

    I don't know how the cars will develop in the future or what are the plans to these cars, but without being a hardcore purist, I think some things should be stripped to make the cars more simple. Brake duct it's a modern feature that wosn't present in those days. The differential "spool" I think it was used only at Le Mans for the sport cars.

    As with other cars of AMB2 the cars rotation feels like having too much inertia, sudently the cars seems to have a lot more of weight when they are rotating then in braking/aceleation or jumping.

    I hope to see more cars in the future, or the same cars with other engines, or the same car with a different track size, whatever that add more visual and feeling posibilities.
     
  3. SaxOhare

    SaxOhare Active Member Reiza Backer

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    The differential settings belong to the essential setup options of a race-car.
    I think 100% (Fixed axle) is/was used in oval racing.

    pawl differential. It is one of the earliest “limited slip” differentials used in road racing and can be seen in many F1, Formula Atlantic and 2-Liter sports racers up to the late 1970’s

    https://taylor-race.com/sites/default/files/DIFFERENTIAL ESSAY W PHOTOS2.pdf
     
  4. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    Spools/Fixed are used in oval racing maybe, but I am almost certain they are used in dirt racing, often in drag racing, and often in drift events. From waht I can see, they use lockers are even open differentials in asphalt oval racing. Apparently on the really fast tracks they're not really in danger of losing traction out of the corners. The shorter tracks they use lockers which are completely open off power, and lock up completely when on power. Spools have a lot of advantages if you're not going around corners or you have a lot more power than traction. If you want to go full Drift King, I imagine spool is the best bet.

    Also guys, I just happened to notice this today. I tried it on a lark. I was at Brands Hatch and binned it on the first corner (as i tend to do when I get overzealous). I reset and it popped me back up at the top of the hill. I decided to put it in first gear and try to bump start the engine, didn't work, car slowed down and engine didnt start ,but the RPM gauge showed movement. I then stopped and put it second gear and rolled down a little further and popped the clutch and the engine roared to life! I know it's a silly small thing, but it's pretty cool when they model this stuff so well that even bump starts work. Maybe this is normal, but I was especially amused at how even though the engine didnt start the first time, the RPM gauge reacted.
     
  5. Damian Baldi

    Damian Baldi Member

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    About the engines, doesn't have too much power? They are rated as 450-465 HP while in 66-68 the best engine had 405-415 and the worst 360-375HP (but with more torque).

    475HP was the power output of the DFV in 1975, but in 1968 it had 415

    https://www.grandprixengines.co.uk/cosworthstory.pdf

    EDIT: It looks like the the cars description is outdated, meanwhile ingame the cars have a more accurate power output, with near 20 HP less.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  6. Raven_ARG

    Raven_ARG New Member

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    From my perspective in driving vintage racing cars in sims since rF1, rF2 and AMS1, the oversteering produced by acceleration it's fine but not perfect, it's like the car looses grip a lot quicker.

    Respecting in high speed turns like the 3 and 4 in Kyalami, the car seems glued to the ground if you don't push too much or turn in an agressive way, it just keep skidding and understeering in a linear way.
    This don't happen to me in Spielberg as the car tends to loose grip more easily. Does it vary depending the track or it was my impression?

    Comparing to other sims, the lacking of grip is constant but here is not. I'm not saying it's bad.. it's just different, like a on and off switch

    (I raced with the winged vintage f1)
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2020
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  7. Damian Baldi

    Damian Baldi Member

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    I been driving the G1M1 more than any other car in AMB2. As Raven said in his post, the change on the grip of this car from track to track or from one kind of corner to other is really big. In other words the car isn't easy to drive at all because is not predictable. I'm not saying that the car had to have more grip, but the grip should be more homogenious or the transition from grip to lose should be softer, or the relation from longitudinal to transversal grip should be closer. At some tracks you can't even drive straight, the rear inmediately moves to a side just by touching the throttle.

    Another thing that makes it too difficult at low speed, is that the engine response is brutal to the throttle at low RPM. With just 5% of throttle applied the engine output is huge (The DFV engine had the torque peak at 6500rpm). That makes this car so difficult at low speed, on the grass or under the rain. I think it's about the amount of air that the engine is capable of ingest with just few throttle applied (at least that's the reaction in rf2 when you build an engine, I don't know if that can be handle in AMB2).

    I tried lot of different setups and different fuel mixtures, but that unpredictable behaviour remains there. In other words, the cars are really fun for some moments, but they feel a lot like GPL, and beyond the myth arround it, GPL had lot of things to improve.

    I know Reiza's experience with vintage cars throught the MOD 79 for rf1 and I know the new work made on this AMB2 with other cars. So I hope that these cars get some attention to solve these difficulties making them more predictables.
     
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  8. Damian Baldi

    Damian Baldi Member

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    Post 0.9.6.0

    The tyres changes feels really well after the new release. I did a small test with the G1M1 at Londrina Short and now the car behaviour is more controllable and predictable.The brake's temp now take longer to rise.

    The suspension animations and halfshaft are wellcome.

    I still feel the same about engine's reaction to throttle as I commented before.
     
  9. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    I am still curious why G1M1 is less nimble and agile than G1M2? Should be the reverse. In a perfect world, I would give G1M2 a bit more tire bite, especially at the front and then make G1M1 a few % better than the revised M2!
     
  10. Damian Baldi

    Damian Baldi Member

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    I don't know if this is new, or I just realized about. However, it explain why the car changes so much his reactions from track to track.

    The engine change the power output from one track to another, and the change is huge! Maybe it's the atmospheric pressure? I don't know if this has been implemented on the AMB2 engine, but the effect seems to be too big.

    The DFV engine power output of the G1M1 moves from the 360 HP at Kyalami to 455 HP at Monaco or Suzuka, with around 400 at Curitiba.

    Curitiba 400hp
    [​IMG]

    Kyalami 368
    [​IMG]

    Londrina 420
    [​IMG]

    Monaco 455
    [​IMG]

    Suzuka 452
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    Thats just based on elevation. They already posted that they model elevation in regards to horsepower on one of the updates, so Kyalami has less hp and probably less downforce too.

    Monaco is obviously pretty much sea level. Suzuka is pretty close to sea level too I think.

    Edit: Suzuka is 150 feet above sea level. Londrina is 2000 feet. Curitiba is 3000 feet. This is actually pretty interesting to see it modeled like this...
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2020
  12. bobbie424242

    bobbie424242 Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Not familiar with the Vintages, I just tried (with latest update) for the first time the G1M1 on Imola 72. After a brief period of adaptation for not spinning in 2nd and 3rd gear on corner exit, wow, what a great car !
     
  13. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    Agreed, I got super excited to see that version of the track in game. I love it. Was brutally unforgiving at first. I still havent quite mastered Tosa, but you can REALLY feel the difference between the Gen1 and Gen2 vintage going through Tamburello. The downforce is obvious there.

    Just dont beat my world record on it. I got really lucky on that lap, I cant top it. ;)
     
  14. bobbie424242

    bobbie424242 Active Member Reiza Backer

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    No chance! I'm absolutely newbie with this kind of car and just competitive with AI 80% for now (but improving fast :D)
     
  15. Damian Baldi

    Damian Baldi Member

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    OK, that's fine, but the effect on the engines is out of scale. It should be 1/4 of the current effect, that way the engines moves from 380 to 410HP.

    There is no way that a DFV engine from 1967/8 give 460HP, that's the power output from the mid/late 70s, the chassis can't handle that, and that's why it becomes undriveable.

    The Kyalami races are the best for some reason. It's not only the power output, all the engine reaction become wild.
     
  16. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    The barometric pressure model is accurate - with every 1000m in altitude an aspirated engine will lose roughly 10% of its output at sea level.

    The DFV peak output is indeed slightly overmodelled due to balancIng of performance vs the V12 model. They will both be slightly reduced, closer to late 60s figures in time for v1 release.
     
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  17. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    Will the time trial records be reset for this? Seems like they should. Are they going to all be reset for v1 release?
     
  18. bobbie424242

    bobbie424242 Active Member Reiza Backer

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    I remember Renato mentioning a leaderboard reset for 1.0
     
  19. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    I did get lucky and set my super awesome Imola 72 lap, but I think that's a good move. Blank slate for everyone. May not be that good of a lap anyway, it's just good for me.
     
  20. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    Yep they will all be reset.
     
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