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What is the reason we can't have AI like.....

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Msportdan, Aug 3, 2016.

  1. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    ..this anymore..?

    Is it the new engines giving more priority to physics and ffb and visuals. What is it that these old games have that the new games dont.

    i tried gp4 last nite all vanilla - yes it looks naf compared to these current games, but i couldn't believe what the AI were doing. I can't believe in 2016 ISI reiza kunos or sector3 can't reproduce ai like this. Cant they look at the files or something or the engine ? heres some examples.





    Actually to be fair even f1 2015 ai draft and can overtake.

     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2016
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  2. Kevin Peat

    Kevin Peat Active Member Reiza Backer

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    @Msportdan Can't you use your mad skillz to get Geoff Crammond to come out of retirement? Just spam him hundreds of times on the same subject, that should work! :)

    On a more serious note, I am sure the guys at Reiza have got the idea now and will sort this stuff out for Reiza17.
     
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  3. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    it wasn't a sort of dig, i just would like to know the actual reason why it can't be replicated. Is there gmotor limitations and why?
     
  4. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    i actually found an interview with geoff and thee questions regarding the gp4 AI:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. CCKaren

    CCKaren Active Member Reiza Backer

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    There's AI in certain games that just boggles the mind with how good it was. The Nascar Racing 2003 AI (or any Papyrus game AI) is a class above what a lot of current games have. Though it's worth remembering by GP4 Crammond had been making racing games for nearly 20 years, and Kaemmer's Papyrus team almost as long as well. I think it's just something that gets refined and polished over many years, certainly more than many current sim developers have been actively making games.
     
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  6. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    also another thing i didn't think of. GP4 was a one car series game, so the ai didn't have to adapt to different handling cars. probably helps lol
     
  7. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    Every software is a set of compromises and design choices, GP4 included. Unless you wish to settle for GP4 physics, limited vehicle type and track selection, as these variables play a big part into how good the AI ultimately is.

    With that said nothing is "impossible", it´s all a matter of time, manpower and budget. It´s cute that you think it´s just a matter of looking up some files though :p

    Not so cute is the incessant spamming you´ve been doing on this particular topic Dan, not sure what you´re expecting to achieve as that´s not going to fuel further AI development mate. We want more as you do, but it doesn´t happen overnight just because you asked a lot :p
     
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  8. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Im "really" passionate about this feature in all sims. For me being an offline player, Ai next to handling is just as important, as with crap ai its just not worth playing offline. AI in racing is imo on top of important features to work in a sim. Im not expecting this overnight and i don't think you can just snatch some code. But maybe looking at these past games can unlock ideas or certain logic..... i dunno your the developers lol (didn't mean rudely)

    It is frustrating that now in 2016 we have multi core cpu, monster gfx cards and you say we can't have nice handling, ai and gfx together! (lets face it ams gfx is hardly next gen?!).
    Do you honestly think its fun to race an ai that won't overtake you and just tap their brakes when they reach your bumper down the straight? Granted their great everywhere else

    If its the engine then please ditch it for reiza2017...because this happens in rf2 aswell

    of course i don't mean any of this disrespectfully but you've plugged in some great stuff to this engine, maybe try the ai?
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2016
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  9. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    It´s not the engine per se, there are no such inherent, unsurmountable limitations as has been mentioned a few times already - the limiting factors are again time, manpower and budget. We only had the source code for little over 1 year, there´s a limit to how much can be done in that time with a team as small as ours - we have in fact already gone quite a bit further than we originally set out to in this project, because like everyone else here we want as much progress as its achievable ASAP. Sometimes perspective is needed though to keep expectations a bit more realistic. If we had a quarter for every time you´ve posted on this topic I might have been able to afford a couple of extra engineers, unfortunately it doesn´t work that way :p

    Fundamentally, I dont think the AI is as defficient as you make it out to be. Give it some time though and it will only get better ;)
     
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  10. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    lol if i had the money ill invest in you guys. :)

    No matter what i say about the AI i truly do think you guys have done magnificent job. I just would like AMS to be perfect, of course not knowing what happens behind the scenes thats an easy thing to say. Do keep up the good work and if you one day manage to get the AI to pull out of that darn draft, ill send you some flowers or beer hehe ..
     
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  11. Paul Bennett

    Paul Bennett Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Renato "If we had a quarter for every time you´ve posted on this topic I might have been able to afford a couple of extra engineers, unfortunately it doesn´t work that way":p

    Well it makes a change we had a year of discussing shadows previously :)
     
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  12. Cheesenium

    Cheesenium Member Reiza Backer

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    I dont think the AI is awful in AMS. Sure, it is not GP4 level but it is definitely not awful to play with. They are still a little passive but I cant really fault much about the current AI.

    AMS AI is probably one of the few games that I really enjoyed it's AI. It doesnt scatter too far away or run off tracks all the time. Nor it tend to ram you from the back or drive too passively.

    There is always room to improve in AMS. I think Reiza had done a great job so far.
     
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  13. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    let me clarify that i do think the AI is 98% brilliant. My problem as stated before (a few times) is as above. Ams for me doesn't have many issues apart from that.
     
  14. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Active Member Reiza Backer

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    There are some points where you'd expect sims to evolve more when you started playing some of them 10~15 years ago indeed.
    Reiza has the code for a short time and is showing potential, hopefully they won't be like the ones that are in the market for much longer and didn't exactly do what should have been done all this time :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2016
  15. mmaruda

    mmaruda Member Reiza Backer

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    I'd say that AI in AMS is ok. The only thing that bothers me about it, is that they neglect you when you try to overtake. For example in Raceroom and lately Assetto Corsa as well, when I go on the inside of an AI driver, they acknowledge the fact that I am there and they need to take a less convenient line. In AMS they still drive like they were just hotlapping.

    Now that said, I think in general, the AI in current-gen sims is improving. I even tried Project CARS recently, and with my easy-mode setting of 50%, the game was quite enjoyable. Sure someone went off track, someone crashed, but some dudes did try to block me and go on my inside and overtake. They actually felt pretty human. Maybe not in a pro-racer kind of way, but it did not feel like I was racing robots.

    The same can be said about Assetto Corsa, with certain car and track combinations they can still feel weird and too fast compared to what the player can do, but the improvement from the previous build was giant leap.

    And here we come to the point of development time - Assetto has been out for 2 years almost and CARS a little over a year. They have launched with atrocious AI and it took all that time to improve and is still far away from perfect. AMS is not even out yet.

    As for the comparison to Grand Prix 4, this really isn't quite fair. A lot of the stuff in those older, more complete games was much simpler and took less time to code, while these titles had major publishers with a lot of money behind them. Automobilista is made a by a small team with the help of crowdfunding.
     
  16. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    the rf1 engine has been around for a while though?

    Rf2 ai if you look real closely isn't that more advanced then ams, apart from the blocking move, which someties causes you to get pushed out of being along side them. It still has AMS issues vo.

    I think PCars ai cut corners don't they, hardly stay on track that stopped me playing it otherwise i thought it was a ok semi-sim.

    Ac ai have stability on and pretty much on rails although they can be quite racey and attack etc
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2016
  17. mmaruda

    mmaruda Member Reiza Backer

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    Let's face it, the AI in rF1 was a bit bad. Youtube is still full of crash compilations and goofs by the AI. As far as I know Reiza mentioned at some point that they just took the rF1 AI code for GSCE and did not change it, so how long the engine has been out is not really relevant.

    As far as rF2 AI goes, people say it's so awesome, but personally, I don't find rFactor 2 that good in any regards maybe except for the tire model. ISI basically, took $80, promised the best sim ever, developed something with the potential to be that and more, but never delivered. I doubt we will ever see rF2 reach the the state of completion and polish, that it could be called 1.0 and that includes the AI IMHO. They act fine most of the time, but weird crashes are still there, sometimes their pace is simply impossible, especially on mod tracks and old cars and they do tend to run you off the road at times. I'd say that at this point rFactor 2 AI is comparable to the bots in Assetto Corsa 1.7, with the exception that AC AI actually uses the same physics as the player, except for the stability assist they have on all the time, which makes the alien with some older cars that then to go sideways a lot. Stefano did experiment with turning that off in his last coding stream, so I guess we will see further improvements soonish.

    As for pCARS, their AI is a bit weird since they coded lots of stuff they can do, but I those are the things your regular player does, so that is why they cut corners and do all sorts of things you would not really see experienced real-life drivers do. They are not very good at racing, but I guess the 'human element' is something that makes them unique. If you compare that to the older Assetto Corsa AI, where they would just be in hotlap mode and not care if anyone was on their inside or outside, CARS AI does not seem that bad.
     
  18. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    i consider rf2 basically a tech demo.. Its not complete its not finished and sure isn't worthy of v1 status. It could be but ISI have their own agenda and seems like they have lost interest like most of the public with their sim. Apart from the guy doing the new car WIP - respect to him.

    Let isi continue with their pro simulations, and give rf2 to reiza to continue!! lol
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2016
  19. Cheesenium

    Cheesenium Member Reiza Backer

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    The reason it cut corners because it really doesnt understand corner ownership. Thats one of the major things they started fixing in the sequel. Other than that, they do fight quite well, attempt to defend their positions and generally overtakes pretty well. They are just a bit too good where I rarely see them make mistakes. Every AI felt like they are some F1 level driver in a Clio Cup. I also find they can be a bit slow in my opinion.

    My problem with AC AI is also they do not understand corner ownership where they will insist of plowing through the corner even though it is very clear that they lost the corner to you. They really have no awareness of the player's cars. The other problem I didnt enjoy AC AI as much is, they are still very reluctant to overtake and still quite passive where it felt more like track day joy ride than a race. However, the bit I like about AC AI is that they do use the same acceleration physics as you where many games in the market's AI generally felt slow at the straights. That makes single makes like Huracan ST, 500 Cup and so on really fun to race in AC.

    For me, every game out there has pros and cons where none of them is perfect so far. I think AMS and R3E AI is the best so far though.
     
  20. mmaruda

    mmaruda Member Reiza Backer

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    You sir, are a genius! That is exactly what should happen.

    But seriously though, I have this feeling that ISI have no idea how to make products for the commercial market. First they insisted on no paid DLC, and as much as I like my content for free, it's 2016, games take a long time to make and finish and you need some sort or revenue stream to keep things going at a descent pace. Then they decided not to be on Steam for a couple of years, which seriously limited the sim's exposure. They hardly did anything to promote the game and that results in empty MP lobbies (except for closed leagues), which beg the question why would anyone pay 80 buck for MP access? It's as if they only relied on the glory of rFactor 2 physics and dynamic track, but other developers caught up and are overtaking. I get the impression they are happy with a small community of dedicated fanboys and don't really want to take a bigger share of the market.

    In any way, I really hope at some point they will at least license the RF2 engine, it would be a shame if this tech was not further developed.

    I would suggest you try lowering their difficulty. I race them at around 50-60% and basically the racing is still enjoyable with minimal goofs and hardly any crashed, but unless they drive a faster car, you can chase them down and it's actually pretty fun. I think people got used to the high difficulty settings of older sims, while in CARS the percentages mean something else (not sure though).

    I did a race today with the Ford Mk IV on Classic Silverstone and this was actually a pretty good experience. Comparing this to Assetto Corsa (where racing AI in something like a Ford GT is still quite painful), I think CARS AI actually became better. Quite surprising.

    As for AMS and Raceroom, I think the latter is still top of my list. I still need more time racing in AMS to make an opinion. From what I have seen, AI being overtaken and overtaking needs work. They also tend to pile up and crash on the first corner in some cars (Vintage for sure), but I think all in all, they are ok. Other things should take development priority, but I see no reason why Reiza, after finishing all the other stuff, can't focus on AI development and maybe even making this the best AI out there.
     
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