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What is the reason we can't have AI like.....

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Msportdan, Aug 3, 2016.

  1. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    another show stopper for me in cars was the ffb. I just didn't know where to start... i think i used that guys ffb files for a while. But what of ffb these days, what do u use?

    dan:)
     
  2. mmaruda

    mmaruda Member Reiza Backer

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    The FFB is still a weak point. I use Jack Spade's tweaker files and his recommended setting. It's not really great but manageable. I think you need to give it some time to get used to it, though this may very from wheel to wheel. This morning for instance I tried just doing laps in the Lotus 49 and the FFB felt horrible. The wheel was heavy in the middle on a straight and then all of a sudden with the slightest loss of grip it went all floppy.
    Later I raced the Ford Mk IV and it was pretty ok there. Just now I did a 2 lap race on the Nord with the Lotus again, and... for some reason the FFB felt quite communicative. I managed to finish 4th with only 3 guy with more modern Lotus with wings ahead of me. Maybe I could even do 3rd or 2nd, if it weren't for a few stupind mistakes, and some collision that probably damages the ride somewhat, since on lap 2 the car would step out on me each time the RPM went anywhere near the red line. And at this point, I actually feel like I need to praise the FFB. It does not feel all that natural like in AMS or Assetto, but it communicates the loss of grip very early on and you can drive on the edge with more confidence. I'd even go as far a to say the FFB is somewhat close to what I have in Raceroom (and I looooove my FFB in R3E.

    I am actually quite puzzled at this point, because I have this strange feeling like the FFB tunes itself to be better while I was driving... Of course it's more likely I just learned to understand the thing.

    Two more things I found when playing CARS today.

    First, while the game is poor at simulating slides and it's near impossible to drift, it does a great job with those little slides at high speed. Not even sure, if that is realistic, but it's like you are flying through a corner on the edge of grip, minimally counter-steering, going slightly sideways even, but you have control. Looks super cool on replays with old cars - just like real footage.

    The second thing is the AI, they do one hell of a job blocking you. I'd say it's actually spectacular and close to what was show at the beginning of this thread with GP4. On the other hand, they take no compromise when fighting for position, they will go over grass if it means overtaking - it's like they cannot back off when the situation become dangerous.
     
  3. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    just come off of a bit if gp4 vanilla. I also like the way if you badly touch wheels your car will bounce in the air. It really something to see this game. Without gfx you could be playing a modern game.
     
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  4. mmaruda

    mmaruda Member Reiza Backer

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    I think the wheel launching thing was something of a signature mark of older open wheel racing games. I remember an arcade racer called Vroom had it (and it was a hilarious overtaking tactic where you would just bounce over the next guy), and definitely Formula One Grand Prix by Microprose had it...

    Just realised it was the first racing sim I played...

    GP4 was king, unfortunately Codies have the F1 license, so yeah... Well, maybe 2016 won't suck, maybe they learned from the Dirt Rally experience.
     
  5. Cheesenium

    Cheesenium Member Reiza Backer

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    I generally have good experience with pcars AI. The AI works very well for most classes, especially GT3s and road cars. The AI in touring cars seemed a bit too safe at times while I did not like the open wheel AI as I find them to have higher chances to crash into you and break your suspensions. SMS AI is pretty fun to race with, they do really fight to defend their position. I just dont like how they drive on the straights because they seemed like they are only pressing down the throttle at 50% than all the way for maximum acceleration.

    AC's AI is pretty boring to race with as they are too passive and drive too safe. They felt like they are on a track day than racing. And the way the AI tends to push you out does get a bit annoying at times just because you brake earlier. Along with the fact that the classes in AC is a complete mess because they do not arrange the cars in proper classes and the BoP is non-existant. I always get really uneven races in AC that really doesnt make racing there fun. Like how some cars are faster than other cars in the class, such as 155 completely destroy the Group As.
     
  6. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    pity pcars ai spend most of their racing on the grass and not the tarmac!
     
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  7. mmaruda

    mmaruda Member Reiza Backer

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    That they do. It seems there is generally a problem with them in overtake situations. They will defend and overtake to the death, once they make a decision, even if it means going off track. I guess they just don't know when to let go and give up the position. However, I do like the fact that it differs from driver to driver - each one seems to have a 'personality' and it works great in terms the overall experience - it's quite engaging and full of surprises - never boring.
     
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  8. xnorb

    xnorb Active Member Reiza Backer

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    I'm not into altering game files, so i don't have in-depth knowledge. But shouldn't you be able to do that in AMS too by fiddling around in the talent file?
     
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  9. mmaruda

    mmaruda Member Reiza Backer

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    That is interesting, perhaps someone knowledgeable could achieve some interesting stuff here.

    I did some more AI testing in various conditions on all the sims I own (which means all of them). My focus was 1960's F1 cars, since these are difficult to drive, but very enjoyable (like the best stuff in simracing ever), so the point of my test was to see which current sim would provide the most fun and fair experience for an average skilled player. I also stuck the tracks from the era, so as to keep the experience authentic and fairly manageable without alien skills required (high speed gentle corners mostly).

    rFactor 2:
    A very mixed bag and it all depends on the track. On some they take too long to even start driving, they tend to cut corners on very high bumps sometimes, which results in cars flying through the air and general carnage. At the lowest skill setting, they just drive like it's a road trip on some tracks, while on others they are inhumanly fast. I found that around 85% on 60's Spa is relatively competitive but it took an hour of trial an error to get there. The whole racing experience was nothing to write home about as well. I have read legends on how good the AI is in RF2, but so far my opinion is that it's highly inconsistent. You simply never know what to expect and what setting to use, so that weird stuff don't happen. I'd say the AI just like everything else in the sim is ancient in the sense that it requires tons of fiddling around. You can probably squeeze a lot out of the AI in RF2, but from an ordinary consumer's point of view, there is too much effort required. I come home from work and want a quick, exciting and not too exhausting race, not to spend hours trying out different settings before I find one that works.

    Project CARS:
    As already mentioned before, the AI works well and provides some exciting races on a manageable level. Goofs do happen and result in crashes, but to some extent it provides for a better experience since 60's F1 was very dangerous and deadly, AI going into a wall is somewhat of a reminder of that (at least a thought like that crossed my mind), however no major pileups occur and you can avoid trouble, if you keep your head. The only gripe I have here, is that they are overly aggressive and don't let off, so it's better overtake when you have a lot of room rather than try to force them to let you through and when they overtake, just let them pass and take the position back later. It's also worth noting that CARS AI is not affected by wet track conditions, so to me they are impossible to beat in rain, but considering how overdone the raindrop and water-splash effects are in this game, you can't see stuff anyway, so not really the best idea to race like that.

    Assetto Corsa:
    Here I was thinking the AI in 1.7 was improved. Nope. They only improved on some track / car combinations, but on the combination that actually should be made for one another, we see some outrageous stuff going on. I took the Lotus 49 for a short 5 lap race at 1960's Monza with the AI set to lowest (80%) and got as far as lap 3 and gave up after 10 restarts. I actually remember having quite good races with this car and the AI here some time ago, but Kunos made them faster and with the stability assist they don't have to worry about flooring on those high speed corners here. I found that the only place viable for overtaking is the Parabolica, if you brake late (a bit after the Pepsi sign). But they get away from you on the straight right after that. The worst part though is that they do not understand the concept of blocking, they don't care you are in their way here. I finally understand why Kunos put those red arrows in the game - they are not there to indicate where the AI is, they are there to tell you where you should not be to avoid a wreck. Overall, I can say that the whole experience was pain and frustration. You would expect a classic car and a classic track to work well, but if you want to race the AI in the Lotus 49 and have a chance against them, I'd recommend the Nürburgring GP - no issues there except maybe they cannot go very fast in tight corners, which is probably key to why it works, you can overtake and build a gap so they don't drive into you.

    Last but not least...
    Automobilista:
    I took the Vintage cars onto Spielberg Classic and set them to 75% (remember the idea is check how AI works for a noob). I did notice that they sometimes crash and sometimes make mistakes like go sideways and then save the cars. This results in a lot of surprises, but doesn't mess with the fun, you just need to be careful, which might be a good lesson for online. Come to thing of it, it's actually quite authentic in terms of pretending to be human. Apart from that it was pretty fun, although the AI still does not acknowledge you being next to them, so you need to be careful when overtaking, however, blocking them seems to work - they don't rear-end you. However, with around 23 opponents the frame-rate dropped significantly. I was able to drive and race, but stuttering was noticeable and considering a rock a 6600K with 16 Gigs of RAM and a GTX980, that should not happen.

    Raceroom was not tested, because it does not have the right cars. :)

    Suming up... Damnit, guys, it turns out the Project CARS is the winner here. It took them more than a year, but they did manage to produce an AI that works and is kinda fun to drive against.

    Now as far as Automobilista goes, despite the FPS issues, it takes 2nd place easily. If only the performance hit could be resolved and them bots were taught to respect the player's personal space we'd have a solid winner.
     
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  10. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Firstly mmaruda, I massively appreciate the time and effort it took you to write your post, a good simple test in which you kept as much balanced between the sims as possible.

    But secondly I cannot agree with your ai outcome. I'm sorry. Pcars for me has had the worst ai ive come across in a racing sim. I haven't played for maybe a year so maybe they have fixed the AI. But keeping uptodate with the changelogs, ive not seen any clear changes to them. My experiences with the ai in pcars is they just all go off track at the first corner (and most corners after that) and as said before they don't stick to the tarmac?! Maybe when your in a one on one battle it may come across as fun or realistic, but even then they do something totally ridiculous. I also am comparing the AI across the board. But maybe pcars unlogical AI suit the classic deathtraps of old f1 cars making a more believable race. But in a modern gt car its a bit silly.

    Moving to rf2/AMS, well I believe the ai in rf2 has the same strengths and weakness AMS ai has. Apart from that the rf2 ai have the infamous defensive blocking move, which Imo seperates the two AI. Sometime they can side swipe you but most ai actually do. Think these two ai are the best challenge in a sim atm. If you up the mistakes value n both sims you can get an almost human experience from them.

    Ac ai is getting there they still show massive vunerability on defending corners as most times they pull out and give up. However theyre straight line battles makes ac ai quite a challenge. They can draft you and will out brake you sometimes. And as you mention the stability all the ai have makes racing them in classic cars pretty unfair. Kunos need to address the on rail ai, and give them some human traits. But one on one battles - like pcars - can be fun and exciting as you dice for positions. I used to think the AI had some extra boost down straights, I'm not convinced exactly that this isn't the case.

    That leaves me with Racerooms AI. On a whole good, but something in an update broke them and sent them back to the wreckless immoveable ai of a few builds ago. But they can be good and I think ive seen them block ala rf2 as well. The thing with rr ai is when you tap them you end up doing a 180 and they carry on, the collision physics is defo fubar there imo. But can have good races there too.

    So if anything the last two posts shows - different people have different opinion of whats good or not. ;)
     
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  11. mmaruda

    mmaruda Member Reiza Backer

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    Keep in mind that my AI outcome is probably only valid for racing 60's F1 cars on vintage tracks. For example, you will not notice much track cutting in pCARS on classic Silverstone, because there isn't really anything to cut. They also won't bunch up and cause a traffic jam since there is no narrow chicanes. I will say though, I did have horrible experience with them in the past, but I think they have significantly improved. To what extent? No idea, not that fond on playing CARS to really provide a scientific analysis. :)

    EDIT: Okay, I'm gonna have to stand my ground here on the Project CARS AI, did a couple of races on Brands Hatch today in the Mustang GT and the RUF CRT. The first race with the RUF I had two guys being jerks on the track going left to right, cutting corners when overtaking and so on, but nothing that a little caution could not nullify. Some really good close racing with a pair of KTMs also. The second race was in the rain, and AI are still a bit on the fast side, but I was able to finish 9th and did not encounter any jerk on track. Maybe because the guys from the previous race were in BMWs and this time there was no BMWs on track (the RUF and Mustang are in the same class here, along with a bunch of other cars). Probably a coincidence, but when I realized I was actually laughing hard.

    Anyway, I am really sorry to say this, but CARS turned out to be a quite good game for offline racing, even if it's kind of light on the simulation side.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2016
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  12. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    I did some running of rf2 and AMS back to back looking at the AI. I'm going to have to retract my statement about them being similar. IMo rf2 ai superior in a few ways. The biggest thing I noticed is the AIs awareness of the player, they are much better of knowing where you are around them. For instance AMS boxers @ Virginia is just a restart frenzy for me the ai literally bang and push you all over the place, and with the nature of that track that means you end up flying off the track at over 100mph!!! Rf2 is much more refined in their whole race craft. AMS is a close secondm, but if I had to call it it would be rf2 for me.....having said that ive seen some AMS improvements over the months and R17 could look like a possible market leader!!
     
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  13. mmaruda

    mmaruda Member Reiza Backer

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    For me the awareness of the player by the AI in AMS is non-existent. They don't ram you from behind maybe, but if you cut on their inside they drive towards the apex, like they don't care.

    On a side not, can you tell me tell me how exactly the AI limiter function works in RF2? What do you usually set it to?
     
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  14. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    i leave it at the 5% default, but may alter to same as AMS 0% --

    AI Limiter="0.25000" // Range: 0.0 (no limiting) - 1.0 (limiting used to make racing closer but also make more driver differences on flat-out tracks)
    Does as it says, makes racing closer between the entire field of cars or more spread out. To try it out set it to 0.0 and watch an AI race - time accelerate is handy, do NOT just 'Finish Session' as this could have variable results - then note/screenshot the finishing times, exit game and change it to 1.0 and repeat then compare finishing times. Longer tracks/more laps have a greater spread obviously!

    from isi site
     
  15. mmaruda

    mmaruda Member Reiza Backer

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    So as far as I understand it correctly, the fast AI won't gain much of a gap with the limiter set? What if I set it to 100%, will that mean everyone will just do the choo-choo train?
     
  16. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Not to bring up a ai thread. But I quickly reinstalled Pcars and had a quick gt3 race at Silverstone. Apart from the fact they have super braking distances compared to the player and they seem to go off track a lot of the times, to even overtake you. Theyre actually quite raceable. I like the racing down the straight - no single file here their drafting and weaving.. yeah but its a shame its a clusterf*** of a game.!
     
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  17. mmaruda

    mmaruda Member Reiza Backer

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    I'd say it's pretty ok now. If you don't expect something super hardcore realistic, it's quite believable physics-wise and has some cool content. Also, those graphics...
     
  18. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Yeah gfx are the best I've seen in a racing game ... And to run at 60 fps most times. Sorta puts ams to shame if u know what I mean. A race in the rain is believable. Its only in the first lap u get the cut corner mayhem. After it seems ok. I did a formula vintage for compare uts not exactly a.million mikes away from the likes of ac and ams. Its a tad more forgiving more like on racerooms level. Its fun id rather play that than codemasters new offering
     
  19. mmaruda

    mmaruda Member Reiza Backer

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    Now that you mentioned it, I was thinking about F1 2016, it seems like Codies did a descent job after all (I only watched Jimmy Broadbent's streams so far), and the AI seemed kind of good. But it's not something I am willing to pay that much money for just to find out. Maybe if they had a bonus mode with vintage F1 season... The modern day F1 feels just soooo boring to me, I have no idea why people loose their heads over it so much, but then again, I am weird that way.

    It's too bad that we seem to be the only people interested in the subject still. It would be nice to see some fresh opinions on the matter and maybe someone could comment on the AI in the new F1 game.
     
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  20. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    think people see the name "msportdan" and the thread title with "ai" in it they run for the hills hehe!
     
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