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WHERE IS LIFT OFF OVERSTEER????????????

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by florian ray, Mar 6, 2021.

  1. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace BANNED BANNED

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    I just want to state that for me I experience the lift off oversteer, each version of it. Heck! I even like driving the Porsches.

    You can easily get the cars or many of them anyway I don't drive them all doing so. I know now this thread is all a fuss over nothing. I am not emotionally invested in it and maybe in America it's different but most of the cars we drive deliberately reject oversteer. They will do less under steer especially if you support them with tyres.

    Why? In my car if you put down the power it will head for oversteer immediately on turn in basically and the systems try to correct the ride. In Ams2 you can lower the ARB if you support the front or rear with the suspension usually. In my car the rear ARB is a limiting factor. You need it on the road for safety but if you take it into fast bends forget it, you'll rely on the tires at the front for grip, which are thankfully semi decent pilot pro sport 3s, because the ARB it's a limiting factor for direction change, as it goes for stability to reject speed problems and to settle the rear, which has upper and lower control arms all round and it's just rubber bushes this one. Much better to even have nylon ones even over the diff sometimes and make them stiff or the weight would rip them eventually. New bushes there in heavy cars improve its stiffness considerably. There's no ability in real life on this to alter the suspension on the fly or at all. On a corner exit that power you put down at the start will just make the wheels spin if not for traction control, the drive by wire nonsense will also kick in limiting torque and revs. Yes you can turn it off but why would you want to? Lol. In performance mode, it's real mode, everything happens faster and as it is it can dump all its torque on the road from as little as 1300 revs. That mode shoves in a lot more fuel. It's s long stroke big bore engine that knows when you want to take off even in normal mode. You can push down the gas 1cm and it launches. It's non linear and computer controlled, but linear for normal driving. Press the pedal in neutral and it limits revs depending on temp. The last thing you want are tighter shifts and higher revs in this thing with the stability and other systems turned off. There's too much weight in the rear and not enough road. The systems on the car will then attempt to contract everything and stabilise the car. The front, then, is too springy and indeed heavy for hard and fast moves in that situation and requires constant reseating of turn angles and throttle control, not linear but not horrible just adds wear. The rear squats so it needs to be more springy. The car will go from oversteer to understeer when you don't want it. None of this is helped by the dual knock sensors or the port injection shape/fuel flow adjustment changing as it sees fit and you can't control it in an ad-hoc way like in more expensive vehicles. It adapts over time and each second.

    Oh yeah - potentially saving lives. So that's a good thing.

    I do not think people understand the setups they do. What we are used to for road purposes is not what we may expect in game. The cars do it all for you in real life, so people may not want to do it in game. Which I think doing setups is great actually. And the game has manual. Imagine a mated transmission and engine with a mind of its own. like the ams2 adjustments... Much better.

    I am not surprised some or well I don't blame anyone for not fully comprehending this stuff.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  2. Andrew Hollom

    Andrew Hollom Active Member

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    Lift-off oversteer (also known as snap-oversteer, trailing-throttle oversteer, throttle off oversteer, or lift-throttle oversteer) is a form of oversteer in automobiles that occurs while cornering when closing the throttle causes a deceleration, causing the vertical load on the tires to shift from the rear to the front, in a process called Load transfer. This decrease in vertical load on the rear tires causes a decrease in the lateral force they generate, so that their lateral acceleration (into the corner) is also decreased. This causes the vehicle to steer more tightly into the turn, hence oversteering. In other words, easing off the accelerator can cause the rear tires to lose traction, with the potential for the car to leave the road tail first.

    This clearly describes deceleration, load transfer, its effect on lateral forces and the overall effect of causing the vehicle to turn more tightly into the turn (which it calls 'oversteering'). It then goes on to say that this can cause the rear tyres to lose traction (note 'can cause', so it is not a necessity, and the inference is that 'lose traction' means a significant loss, i.e. a very large slip angle, as the tightening of line has already been covered, so this must be something beyond that) with the potential for the vehicle leaving the road tail first (note the word 'potential', so this is not a necessity for usage of the term being described).

    I know you'll choose to focus on only the first few words and those bracketed immediately afterwards, ignoring the rest of what your reference goes on to say in explanation of this phenomenon, which is what you did in an earlier post, but that's out of my control. Wikipedia is an open source that can be edited, so you could amend it to better suit your opinion.
     
  3. Micropitt

    Micropitt Mediocre driver doing mediocre laps

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    And how do we know you didn’t edit it to make it fit your opinion?
    (Sorry, I just couldn’t resist) :p
     
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  4. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence German localization/Testing Reiza Backer

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    You know load transfer explanations become serious, when you see an MR2 on the edge of rolling over.
     
  5. steelreserv

    steelreserv Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Not at all. That definition is fine.

    im glad you posted the definition.

    Let me remind you that one of your first declarations was that LOOS is NOT “snap OS” so its not surprising you are skipping that important part and focusing in load transfer.

    Here is the thing that I think you are missing:
    1. I never stated you needed complete traction loss for LOOS. There can be tendencies.
    2. I never stated that coming off throttle can’t cause LOOS, its kind of inherent.
    3. I am stating that despite the lift off and load transfer, not ALL scenarios cause LOOS.
    4. Based on your own definition of OS that your proudly posted from your skip barber guide, OS requires a higher wheel slip in the rear, which is obvious.

    BUT here is the key point that you conveniently avoid at all costs. The Off-throttle rotation that is found in other sims does NOT require a higher wheel slip in the rear!!!!

    Therefore, by YOUR own definition, its not OS and therefore NOT appropriate to call it Lift Off OVERSTEER.

    If you can agree to stop calling off-throttle rotation “LOOS” and supporting threads like this that accuse AMS2 of not having LOOS, because it does. We can get to discussing WHY off-throttle rotation is limited in some LSD cars in AMS2 compared to other sims.
     
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  6. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace BANNED BANNED

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    I've driven one to buy it but rejected it though I wanted to. It's turbo was not in good shape and the bonnet needed painting. Nor did the Aircon work but those little engines were cool, had one in a Camry once lol

    Another guy, a race guy took me for a drive on a wet road, the thing was suped up seriously. It's rear was jerking around and the car slid a fair bit but his driving was on point and he rescued it a few times. My head was pressed into the seat from the gforce I could barely look out the window. There was something wrong with him as he was doing 100kms that day on back streets and long fast bends in the rain. He said for me not to worry one little bit. Which was shocking actually because of their snap oversteer. He owned a lot of fast things that guy in his large garage.

    He didn't want to sell it. It's no wonder. He must have convinced himself since he redid the entire car himself. 2nd type it was. Was strange as I could see he knew exactly what he was doing and right on the edge. That thing was glue, like they are, until they're not.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  7. oez

    oez Mayor of Long Beach

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    Earlier in the thread I was also using LOOS to describe less understeer and all other related phenomenon. I've since change my mind about that, other people were right about that and I was arguing for no reason. It's oversteer if it's oversteer. Otherwise it's something else. Yes technically the dynamics can be the same (but it can also be somewhat extreme suspension geometry changes like it is in the Vee). The point is that there is a pretty big difference between less understeer and oversteer. Also in the way a sim might be able to achieve stable liftoff oversteer through diff trickery which is the theory being thrown around a couple times.

    Yes.
     
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  8. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace BANNED BANNED

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    Yes, gentleman please do. So much more to discuss, we all get it now. Maybe not me but most of us. I do get it though. Your brains are not even working yet on the meaty stuff.
     
  9. steelreserv

    steelreserv Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    You can tell because it doesnt support his opinion in the first place. Lol
    He’s been trying to shoe horn all lift off load transfer scenarios into the LOOS category, from the beginning. That’s his “in” so to speak.

    This thread and other threads his tactic is to bombard readers with technical details to impress, but essentially obfuscate the topic to such a degree that no one knows how to really respond either because they don’t understand the technical points or are shy to admit they dont know them.

    I coukd care less honestly, until you cross that line and criticize AMS2 under a false premise, that just so happens to be being popularized in the sim community.

    people may not understand threads like this fully but people will still use this misinformation nonetheless to criticize AMS2 here and elsewhere.
     
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  10. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace BANNED BANNED

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    This is kind of like when motorbike riders get to the next stop, and acuse the other of clipping their wheel.

    Ok. I for one do not like a game I like being misrepresented. It happens all the time out there of course with all titles, but Sims are so much more definable and specific..

    It might help if we all just try to talk in terms of reference to sc27s terms. I'm not picking sides but it's probably the more familiar, ams2 specific reference nomenclature to go with. That may rely on people adjusting maybe but it's the way forward I think.

    At this point can someone tell me which cars they think do and do not have loos in some capacity. Otherwise we're eating away at our energies we could use for other things. There's a lot more to set straight than definitions. Because I drove the Rocco with 60 ARB front and the AMG diff p/c settings and it was literally the most dynamic drive ever at Bathurst. It did (colloquially) under, neutral and over and according to how I drove it, under acceleration and off it. Point and shoot, no surprises it was.

    Just so we can maintain our sanity no judgement. We can all exhibit vulnerable narcissism online in these situations, just like Twitter or anything online, it's ok. But clarity in definitions is surely achieved. That's not a character assessment just that message boards bring it out when pushing points, which is no weakness, just the pitfall of trying to explain things in writing sometimes. It basically means increasing high sensitivity to criticisms limited to explanation in this case. Or use both.

    If the discussion proceeds beyond this sticking point I am sure all will become clear anyways.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  11. Micropitt

    Micropitt Mediocre driver doing mediocre laps

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    Here is a solution that will satisfy everyone. May I present?

    If you like oversteer, understeer or whatever steer just take the Stock Car 2020 to the Nordschleife. I promise you a experience like no other.

    If you don't like oversteer, understeer or whatever steer just take the Ginetta G58 to the Nordschleife. It's like a Tank on steroids on rails.

    There, I solved everyones problems in no time :D
     
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  12. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace BANNED BANNED

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    Over steer: it happens.
    Under steer: It happens too.

    Setups. Can make it happen.

    Edit. Note: "Can"
     
  13. oez

    oez Mayor of Long Beach

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    If you enjoy the finer things in life. You know like fresh orange juice, new linen, a nice bicycle ride in the morning, a waxed car. Then I can really recommend Copa Uno at Velo Citta. You haven't truly lived virtually until you have screamed up Brazilian Raidillon with the mighty FIRE engine and then slid down Brazilian corkscrew sideways from all the liftoff oversteer.
     
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  14. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace BANNED BANNED

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    Do we need to get Dave Perel to try this game?
     
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  15. Andrew Hollom

    Andrew Hollom Active Member

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    One of my first statements was that lift-off oversteer was not snap oversteer, you're right, and the reason I said it is that it is not a given that lift-off oversteer results in snap oversteer (certainly it can, but not always).

    Points 1 and 3: Synaks posted that "I think you have failed to consider the fact that there can be different magnitudes of loo...", and this was opposed by you, and now you're saying that you can have varying magnitudes of lift-off oversteer. Even the Wikipedia reference of lift-off oversteer implies levels.

    Point 2: I don't recall ever accusing you of saying that a throttle lift can't cause oversteer, so I'm not sure why you made this point.

    Point 4: I mentioned the Skip Barber definition of oversteer because many people think oversteer just means rear traction loss, even opposite lock, when it actually just means a larger slip angle than the front. It was used as part of an argument that it is possible to have a small amount of oversteer that can be controlled and utilised and doesn't have to be catastrophic (because you were saying the lift-off oversteer is snap oversteer, though points 1 and 3 seem to be backtracking).

    You're right that off throttle rotation (why do you say "in other sims" when it applies to all sims and real life?) does not require a greater slip angle at the rear than the front. I even stated this myself in an earlier post (the understeer>less understeer, understeer>oversteer and oversteer>more oversteer cases), and I agreed that understeer is understeer and cannot be described as oversteer. Why you're regurgitating this I don't know.

    The use of a single term to describe increasing the yaw angle of the car is very convenient, and changing from 'lift-off rotation' to 'lift-off oversteer' at the precise moment rear slip angle exceeds the front is awkward for most and for non vehicle dynamics experts not relevant. This is the reason people misuse lift-off oversteer as the catch all term for yaw increase. This level of fussiness isn't useful, and would be like correcting people who said "I could care less" when they meant "I couldn't care less" - I know what they meant to say, so there's no point ("I didn't do nothing" is another phrase we all just have to learn to live with).

    So, shall we find out why some cars don't drive as well as they should?
     
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  16. Andrew Hollom

    Andrew Hollom Active Member

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    So, it doesn't support my opinions? Interesting!

    You think I'm trying to impress people? I wonder what you think I'll gain from this? I guess you think I have some huge ego (I wonder why?). I think you underestimate the forum members here - there was no obfuscation either. Again, interesting!

    So, you want to find out why AMS2 doesn't have the lift-off rotation in your opinion (and many others) it should have? Yet you want no criticism, even if you know it is valid but made using a misuse of a term. Talk of load transfer and slip angles is much easier to grasp than the infinitesimal difference between lift-off rotation and lift-off oversteer either side of the oversteer/understeer line. The premise wasn't false, just one piece of terminology used to describe it, and it was only a white lie.

    Anyway, we've gone around in circles for too long, and people are so sick I've even heard one unsubscribed from your channel, so let's stop this and move on.
     
  17. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Have you tried my Ginetta G55 test yet?
     
  18. Synaks

    Synaks Member

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    I plan to try it or something similar (I don't really like brands hatch) later today.
     
  19. Andrew Hollom

    Andrew Hollom Active Member

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    No, but I'll see if I can find time soon. The trouble is that I do a lot of rF2 league racing (I keep trying to cut back, but then I fill in the holes again - I know, stupid!), so I only dabble in AMS2 from time to time to see if it's improved. I do like it though, but there are a few warts that need treating. I'd like to try and identify the problem cars because some are really nice and it would be great if they all drove nicely.
     
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  20. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace BANNED BANNED

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    If people are not trying the super karts at velo cita on a late sunny afternoon, you're missing out. just click up once both dampers on the front. Am using custom 4.0 file latest

    Sublime in a race scenario. Its alive, possibly better than Mario kart and the AI are absolute flying monkeys like kamokaze bullets at times darting around. Really amazing racing. The sound of the little kart wheels sliding and whatnot so good.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021

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