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WHERE IS LIFT OFF OVERSTEER????????????

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by florian ray, Mar 6, 2021.

  1. David Peres

    David Peres Member

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    Haven't tested any of the others, but the Porsche Cup still doesn't seem to have almost any kind of oversteer whatsoever, lift-off or braking, except in some very extreme circunstances.

    The Boxer Cup was one of my favourite cars in AMS1 so the Cups in AMS2 are disapointing to me, even if they're still fun to drive and have wonderfull FFB.
     
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  2. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

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    They seemed to have made some LSD changes in last update, it doesnt fix everything though. F-retro was probably the worst and while lower speed turn in is now better and LSD stays open, higher speeds still make you understeer off track. It might be related to (lack of) front grip/bit as well, who knows.
     
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  3. Koen_Sch

    Koen_Sch Member

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    I've spend some time with the formula trainer advanced this afternoon, and I think I've found the lift off oversteer you're looking for.
     
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  4. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

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    lol but dont those cars have open diff with no way to change it?
     
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  5. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    Those cars are going to be the last ones to feel right. With the unique edge cases they present, until the diffs are fixed they're always going to feel odd. I dont think the real life cars were that prone to understeer. You can watch videos of them doing beautiful four wheel drifts in those cars.



    High power, low weight, short wheelbase, large "heavy" rear tires/wheels, smaller front tires, sticky race slicks, and a reliance on mostly mechanical grip (aero grip is relatively insignificant here) means these cars are always going to be off unless they either band aid the physics model with workarounds or get the underlying parts of the model causing the issues completely fixed. They're probably the best testbed in the game to see how the diffs are working, actually. The more aero grip and car mass you have the more it is obscured.

    I think the LSD's are still too sticky. They're very reluctant to unlock, and when they do its kind of sudden. I think the power on side might be a little more linear.
     
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  6. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    One thing we tend to forget is that understeering setups are not going to yield a lot of lift off oversteer. So baseline setups are not the best for this.
    Typical way to induce it are
    1- Stiffen rear rebound dampers
    2- Increase the coast ramp angle
    3- Reduce diff pre-load to promote early opening while coasting
    4- Increase slightly rear tires pressures.
    5- Reduce front brake bias
    Also driving style changes a lot.
    AMS2 has as much lift off oversteer as you dare setting. Not on baseline though because they are too safe settings
     
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  7. Roar McRipHelmet

    Roar McRipHelmet Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    «Shots fired! Shots fired!»



    TL;DR; The video highlights lack of lift-off overster on RWD cars with LSD, twitchy rear when rearward brake bias and braking on the limit, and turn more to gain more front grip in a corner (essentially balancing the car from steering input instead of throttle input)
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
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  8. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Were we expecting anything different from GM?
    The only one that makes any sense IMO is the third one: it's not true that the more you steer the more grip you get, again that depends on how you have setup your car. In general I agree with you that the response of the driveline to throttle in general feels too lame to me in AMS 2 as if the driveline was very lazy and that is reducing your chances to drift the car on throttle (especially at low RPM). It could use some improvement but it's not a show stopper.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
  9. Roar McRipHelmet

    Roar McRipHelmet Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    No, I wasn't expecting anything different, but I'm not implying that the video or the opinions shared in it are a bad thing, just that it's a controversial topic.

    I also think that GamerMuscle is sharing his opinions in a constructive manner, but for his own health's sake I hope that he is still able to enjoy the parts of AMS2 that he likes, and not fixate too much for too long on the bits that grinds his gears. But given his history with comments about iRacing, I think we know the answer to that :D:oops:

    As for my opinion on lift-off oversteer in AMS2, I'm not so much in GamerMuscle's camp (just see my comment on the previous page in this thread), although I see where he is coming from.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
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  10. Simmo99x

    Simmo99x Active Member

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    I definitely have to agree with most points Gamermuscle brought up.

    1. The steering input/sensitivity or DOR can certainly give you a huge advantage in certain cars.

    2. The braking/snatching a wheel, which I believe is more to do with the lack of stability at lower speeds/mechanical grip, makes alot of cars feel very twitchy/snappy, almost over exaggerated.

    3. As for the lift off oversteer effect on coast..
    I cant seem to get this at all, in fact I find lift off oversteer to be abundant in most cars, if provoked in the correct way.
    Yes not so much in certain LMP/P4 etc where high downforce and huge big rear wings, combined with very stable default setups, can suffer with chronic understeer.
    But remove the rear downforce and all hell brakes loose.

    But overall he's not actually far off the mark for once IMO.
     
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  11. tlsmikey

    tlsmikey Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Well GamerMuscle, Jimmy, Billy Strange, and Ermin are all bringing up similar points. There are definitely a bunch of folks here that think these guys are way off base, but the numbers don't lie and I think it's a disservice to Reiza to underplay the significance of the impact these physics issue are having on the player base.
     
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  12. SaxOhare

    SaxOhare Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Stop watching youtube, make up your own mind.
     
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  13. Magnus

    Magnus Active Member

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    ....but, but...I need other people’s opinions to form my own, until someone else on YouTube tells me otherwise of course.;) I’m starting to think making up your own mind is a lost art.

    Apart from GM’s irritating voice reverb/echo thing on his streams he’s quite watchable.

    The trouble is the same numbers and statistics can always be used to highlight opposing points of view depending on the presentation from a particular party or person....
    ....but yes, underplaying actual issues is a disservice to Reiza. Of course providing a critique of enough quality and thought to be of use to Reiza is needed to start with (that’s not a dig at GM in particular but there’s plenty of YT vid criticism of AMS2 which has been nebulous at best.)
     
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  14. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence German localization/Testing Reiza Backer

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    To be fair, i would not say, the LSD issues were underplayed, when looking at the recent changelogs of the last months :p
     
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  15. Micropitt

    Micropitt Mediocre driver doing mediocre laps

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    This ^ ^ ^
     
  16. stlutz

    stlutz Member

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    Every time I see a video like this I always want to ask how much time 1) the maker of it has spent driving real race cars, and 2) how much time the maker has in video game development.

    Like everyone else I have things I like and don't like about each sim and I use the ones while the "don't like's" don't bother me that much.

    For 4th tier sim racers like me, I think the bothersome concerns with AMS2 have been, in order:

    a) too many cars that were undrivable out of the box w/o major setup work. This issue has been almost entirely fixed.
    b) AI issues. This seems to be a WIP--better than a month ago but still needs more work to be as good as, say, Raceroom
    c) Lack of single-player "game play" features (e.g. custom championships, career mode etc.)
    d) Underdeveloped multi-player struture.

    Whether the default setup of a RWD car has sufficient lift-off oversteer seems to me to be a down-the-road kind of issue. I can't tell any difference between AMS, ACC, or Raceroom in that regard, but I'm also not an expert or an alien.
     
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  17. Kevin del Campo

    Kevin del Campo Active Member

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    Hes actually doing Reiza a favor with this.
    I watched the vid today and he is basically asking them to improve the game because he likes it.

    This whole “dont watch yt” might have been true 10 years ago but its not how the world works anymore.
    I really love this game and Ive pretty much stopped playing ACC and RF2 because of it, but theres definitly stuff wrong with it.

    Theres a difference between whining and constructive criticism.
    By being a fanboy and not admitting theres anything wrong with the game I think youre actually doing the devs a disservice.
     
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  18. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Actually they are all bringing different points...

    It is the same in all sims: crank up the directness of the steering by DOR or other methods and you will get a laptime advantage. It is the same in iracing and ACC. It is the limit you hit when you give unrealistic inputs to any simulator. I have taken advantage myself in both simulators of the same mechanism. I had a 4s advantage at Le Mans in iracing just by making the steering wheel unnaturaly more direct. Same in ACC. You can ask the fastest drivers how much that changes the car. One of the fastest stated around 2s at Spa by using 360 instead of 540 DOR.

    I disagree with this. Usually the twitchiness is linked to how you downshift and how you setup your rear dampers/springs. If you get those (and BB) remotely right the car will brake enjoyably.

    Totally agree...
     
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  19. Simmo99x

    Simmo99x Active Member

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    I agree that the steering can be set to give you an advantage in all sims.
    But in AMS2 its a different kind of effect, almost like an extra grip effect/seesaw effect at the wheel giving strange results.

    But the low speed stability really needs tweaking, its as though the cars are in and out of grip constantly, as though the window is too narrow or has a like falling off the cliff effect, instead of a gradual fall.
    But in the mid to fast corners its probably the best sim there is for me.
     
  20. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    In iracing I used it extensively: it is exactly the same thing. The car seems to have increased grip, the wheel becomes stiffer, the car has way less understeer, the tarmac granularity feels increased. It has physical sense if it was realistically feasible. Problem is in real life no one can drive a car with full lock at 90 degrees or even less because it will be impossible to be precise enough and because forces will be huge. In the sim world though you can do it and take advantage...
     

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