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Automobilista 2 April 2021 Development Update

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - News & Announcements' started by Renato Simioni, May 2, 2021.

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  1. Marius H

    Marius H Internal Beta Tester Reiza Backer

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    Looks it's easy.

    • If you can afford a wheel play racesims
    • If you can afford a controller play normal games or arcade/simcade racing-games
    • If you can afford a controller + KB/M play normal games or arcade/simcade racing-games
    • If you can afford KB/M play normal games
    • If you can't afford all of the above don't game.

    Simracing and flying simulations are made to immerse yourself into real-life. If you do not want to buy a wheel or stick/hotas you're limiting yourself.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
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  2. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    You are so right. I should find better ways of effective communication.

    I agree with the other post that it can be to a level of course. I would never want to ostracize gamepad users. Just that sensibly they have their drawbacks. Even though they've been great since platform games there's a reason to keep them but they have their drawbacks in these types of games. To that effect I think it won't be and due to the post above this, ever a 1:1 dev thing for them. Because think about all the ground one can make up with Dev for wheels and the various types versus the controller. Maybe turtz is in several places pushing that barrow but without discouraging him it's a tough slog. In this forum alone there's 200 plus pages on wheels and only 5 on controllers. After 2 years. I don't know what to say. Isn't that indicative of the progress that can be made?

    ---- can stop reading now ----

    If we want to get technical (and we don't lol ok I know) but think about the game engine itself and what its designed for, why would madness engine as an advanced simulator want to use deep-ingrained movement commands slated toward a gamepad? Look at unreal and games like doom etc (which unreal engine 4 came a log time after), the movement in doom you can do on a controller and you can not fire to the level above you in 3d, it kind of does it automatically...but in modern games they need to take those in-grained movement commands and add auto aim and other helpers for games like made with unreal, frostbite etc. But the level of immersion is not down to how one moves his/her arms, its only predicated on aim-botting and lining up a shot.

    AMS2/M.Engine is different, I bet you. Its simming a wider array of things.

    Its down to the engine - rf2 does NOT have that engine, its less expansive in that regard - hence why when I plug my gamepad into Rf2 its on a narrow band - the car basically drives itself (I kid you not). This is not the simulation of AMS2, and its stemming not from layers sitting on top of the game (like dampening etc) but I bet you its rooted deep down. Thus not a lot of work is done on it for this and myriad other reasons. Gamepads were made with platform games and space invaders in mind and similar. Yes you can get 360 degree turning with gamepads and lots of buttons - guess what, this is great for games like NBA2k, but not racing games. In a racing game you only move left or right with the controller. A wheel is predicated on the same thing, but its infinitely more usable. You will never shrink down the axis in AMS2 to the way the wheel works. Or adjust buttons to make it function like a pedal. I know we think in terms of stop/go, left/right, but so much more is happening in the Madness engine.

    So to that effect I do not believe the development of gamepads in the madness engine is because they don't like gamepads. I think its something that was meant to not be a design constraint. When I think of driveline implications or tire wear I think of how with a controller you need to suppress a lot of the goodness of the simulation for a controller, so this is but one reason I hold that view. I think its a very linear engine with regards to turn wheel left or right and have 1000s of points on that scale, or accelerate or brake. I tell you in rf2 they do model that kind of thing, but the M.E in AMS2 is beyond their levels. In rf2 you can trust when you turn right it remains linear/narrow banded (yes the tire model and ffb is good), but its narrow. Come down the turn at Laguna saca off the straight with a game pad and you will stop and be able to turn - without question - that left hand turn then accelerate and do the same on the next one (was a gt3). Do the same in AMS2 and you will overrun it or spin out. Its not because the controls are naff, its just like trying to fit a larger box into a small one. AMS2 lets you turn too much, overrun too much, its setups makes a lot more sense, go far beyond the former generation of game engines. What we notice is that the AMS2 way of doing things is less compliant. You really need to wrangle the car and make your setups good. (no I did not try Laguna in AMS2 yet but other tracks) You can make it work, but you will be limiting your driving to do so.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
  3. Beccobunsen

    Beccobunsen Well-Known Member

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    Well,well, well.. is you loose the race against a Gamepad and you use a "race sim setup", you suck?

    Just for asking..
     
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  4. Billy Blaze

    Billy Blaze Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    i think the best course is for everybody to mind their own damn business. I happen to use a wheel, but if I want to use a keyboard with my toes (or any other appendage) for input, it's nobody else's concern. Ever. Period. We all paid our hard-earned $ - live and let live.
     
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  5. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    Its never apples to apples though making comparisons hard.

    Billy then don't make it a public issue. Also, I do not think if you value the quality of your life and what you choose to fill it with, that this should be a moral issue or cause edit: that would determine your actions.

    I don't pick up a bag of nails, get on a bandwagon and wonder why I can't use a drill to better tap them into a wall.

    The extent of my 'ideology' on this issue is that the Madness Engine was made with a purpose in mind. So were the other engines but they had to compromise on more things, thus allowing like on console games/engines - allowing controllers to be of much greater utility or be in the zone of that to do so. I would love to take the position you, Billy Blaze, have made. I would, but I can't. I even enjoyed using a gamepad with AMS2 the other day, its not that I do not like it. I just think I wouldn't continue to do so in light of a wheel.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
  6. Billy Blaze

    Billy Blaze Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Yeah well life is hard, and it's really not fair either is it? Nobody's made a wheel-only sim, and it's not likely to happen anytime soon.
     
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  7. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    I think thats my point to drill it down further - that its not like M.E "isn't", its just that its less likely to be conducive to the controller's strengths.

    And also if you want to use it or anything else you should. I would not take away that right at all. Just like there's those who can play FPS games with one far better than i can. So what people choose to do is ok
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
  8. Beccobunsen

    Beccobunsen Well-Known Member

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    If we can think a solution for the 0.9% of users with motion-sickness, Why we can't try to create a better experience for , let's say, 10% of users?

    What kind of user retention planning is, that?
    Or maybe if you have much $$ to spend in hardware , you are much more customer than me?
    Reiza is not an hardware business..
     
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  9. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    Something I never made known but yes it's definitely a retention issue. But sometimes I guess Devs have to pick where they decide their time goes into. I think on that it could compromise the innate ability of the direction the game goes into. I just don't think it's a deliberate flaw. The contrary, that its at odds with how the development progresses. No plan can account for everything.

    I guess this argument is reversed over at Forza where they want better wheel usage lol

    True story, I pick my battles on that front too. I bought my original wheel to better be more immersed into Forza Horizon 3. BIG mistake. I then saw racing sims and felt relieved the wheel was not wasted. Because a controller can do so much more than a wheel I think people with controllers should not feel left out by any measure. If anything the wheel is the limited option. However, because the guy already owns AMS2, its not truly a retention issue. People buy these games knowing they are better or worse for various things.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
  10. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    I will recommend to Reiza to NEVER EVER announce a date for an update until they are at least 99% sure of it because when there is an unintended delay, the waiting masses prefer to turn on each other while waiting for said update instead of just enjoying themselves with the existing version.

    Seriously, this thread has now gone way beyond the embarrassing point. You know if Reiza wasn't so busy working on the update itself, someone would have already come over here to close it. But please don't go into the May update thread with similar silliness.
     
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  11. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    I don't see it as us turning on each other. Its discourse, yes punctuated in stark contrast elsewhere by the reams of positivity, but this is welcomed discourse nonetheless.

    Well its a big issue to the controller people. Its also update related. The wonder was originally why more controller support was not included. I don't know but I've come up with about 20 reasons why it is not. That some may have intended to charge the issue I think is no detriment. In life we must plunge through the good with the bad, how else are misunderstandings ratified. It builds character - and even myself I have learnt some stuff and am more actually inclined to view controllers better.

    I know we are not all within a consensus on this issue - but many topics don't need to be. I do not think its argumentative or negative as its all very reasonable. In some ways statements like "Where's the controller support!" is a little bit bad compared to the posts explaining why that was asked that followed. But we got to take the good with the bad. And its been mostly good.

    This was the one that sealed it for me. 'the price of admission' argument. Entirely reasonable. In life if you can't go to the sporting event you don't go. It doesn't matter if thats 'your team' but if its a finals game and the tickets are suddenly 300 dollars when they used to be 50, thats the way it is.


    Its so very easy to understand, but I think some of the angst should not be levelled at Reiza constantly (just saying) in the updates section. We all came here without a naive understanding of the way the world works, and to top if off I added some reasons why its not the best idea to wish this game was controller-amazing as an immediate or why-isn't-it-done priority. Why would anyone want it to be? Even guys with controllers - so many titles they can play with them. Its not a useless device.

    In fact thats my beef - why does this have to be a constant 'update' topic, as after explanation its pretty obvious (which I knew) it simply shouldn't have been. Its a kind of consensus seeking strong-arm tactic. Even now as I look around the internet the same actors asking over at steam etc. There is no fascination with controller usage in the title - its a secondary input device and why would anyone want first class treatment with it. I am not over at NBA2k demanding greater keyboard inputs or simplified controls for it!

    Why? I'd be wasting my time. But I am not a big meanie. I think the lad is asking around a lot perhaps because I believe he thinks its the game's ticket to the big time. That, it is not.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
  12. Manohy

    Manohy Member

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    I will never play a sim with other than a wheel on PC, but I think gamepad has its place in sim racing. Especially for AMS2 that has a "sim for the masses" development path, good gamepad support should be natural and even mandatory. We don't know what those 15 gigas of foliages update will bring in term of graphic performance gain or loss but for the moment, most of AMS2 positive reviews are about VR, it means that it could be a VR testing platform or even benchmark for VR racing games and many VR devices owners don't have wheels and will not buy one. What I'm going to say will start a war but seeing how things are going via people opinions + community + steam charts + future concurrent sim release, AMS2 will not have big success as a sim on PC. It will be a good sim but not a big seller...The pattern is drawing...But it could be a good sim on consoles if it has a console version + good gamepad support...It will have some attention before GT7 and FM8 release...
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
  13. Aza340

    Aza340 Active Member

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    What on earth is going on ! Sorry but this is just spam .
     
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  14. Gagaryn

    Gagaryn Out To Lunch Reiza Backer

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    Try brevity. Think what it is you want to say, then say it. Repeatedly posting your inner monologue stream of consciousness helps nobody. You think you're putting forward reasoned argument - everyone else sees ranting.

    "I'm sorry I wrote such a long letter. I did not have the time to write a short one."
     
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  15. Kuku Maddog

    Kuku Maddog Well-Known Member

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    Those of us old enough to remember
    ( which i think is quite a lot are , which also says something about the the evolution of sim games.) playing Gran Turismo 1 for the first time on a controller will know that at the time that was as good as it got .
    For most of us the thought of actually driving a game with a wheel was something you could only do at the arcades.
    This probably didn’t change much until many years later when GT3 come out .
    I stopped playing games after all my Gt3 data was wiped by my child to make room for mindcraft or something like that. :mad:

    Fast forward over a decade and many titles have come and gone and or been superseded by there own sequels, each pushing the experience to a new level i can only imagine. Logitech wheels would have been considered the realm of the fortunate or extravagant in the time between Gran turismo and the dawn of pc sim titles.

    But in the last few years or so the world has moved on . I was inspired back into this world during covid-19 and thought getting something i never could have before ( a logitech g29 ) would be all i needed..

    But …. it didn’t live up to my expectations as a wheel controller but showed me enough to hook me into using a wheel.
    i knew there was no way i could relearn the thumb gymnastics and muscle memory i had over a decade or so ago of racing with a controller, which at the time seemed second nature. and i knew it wouldn’t be engaging enough to warrant spending money on better pc equipment etc.

    So after what turned out to be a downgrade to a very brief time to a T150 i almost gave up thinking maybe this wheel use isn’t what it’s cracked up to be , then managed to score a t300 set up and haven’t looked back .

    I could never imagine using a controller again and it seems to me that it’s just the natural evolution of things , technology never sits still and just like music media you have to move with the times . just because i used to enjoy tapes doesn’t mean i don’t now stream my music.
    Each new technology is initially expensive, but filters down as it becomes mainstream.

    The same applies to Sim racing. I know my wheel is old but it’s still current enough.

    our own history tells us you can use and enjoy racing with a controller, and we should respect that , but it’s almost obsolete tech for sim racing and it’s a case of moving with the times or be left behind i’m afraid controller user’s. :whistle: If you can afford a pc good enough to run a modern sims ( mines totally budget) you can enhance your investment with the appropriate controller device . no point having an awesome stereo amp and using tiny little speaker’s.

    So basically i sympathise for controller users , but a controller user is just someone that’s waiting to be enlightened. ;)

    BTW : How’s my word count. :D
     
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  16. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Active Member

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    I am not sure what are you talking about, like usual. But I wanted to correct your view about gamepad usage because even your settings were a bit strange. You don't want any dampening for ME. Your sensitivity was rather low and it could have bad feeling.

    And important thing is gamepad steering is like wheel steering. You will lose almost nothing from the game. FFB is very overrated for gaming. It's maybe cool but it's not necessary at all. You drive a car and you know what is necessary because you have eyes and ears.
     
  17. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Active Member

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    I played on wheels for more than 10 years and then went to a controller. It's much better.

    BTW, LOL, Race's brother :D
     
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  18. Kuku Maddog

    Kuku Maddog Well-Known Member

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    I’m just impressed you read it , i normally don’t bother if it’s more than one thumb roll..
     
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  19. Dicra

    Dicra Local Gamepad Ambassador

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    I possess a wheel, haven't touched it in years. Having grown accustomed to the controller, I feel more in control of the car with a controller than with a wheel. I'm also much, much quicker and more consistent, despite the fact that I use the same assists (none, except auto clutch) that I use on the wheel.

    I feel more satisfied when I nail a corner on a pad, than I do on a wheel. There is a certain quality to driving a true-to-life car with a pad: That's an input device that isn't intended to work, but you can, through skill, trick it into being within about a second to the best wheel users.

    It's not just about immersion, it's about the sheer enjoyment of pushing a virtual vehicle to its limits. You can have it with both. Most people will like the wheel more, because it's much closer to reality, and requires less precision.
    But some won't, and why would that necessarily be "limiting yourself"?
     
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  20. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Active Member

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    What? rF2 uses autopilot for gamepads? Are you sure?

    :D
     
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