1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Automobilista 2 Force Feedback - Overview & Recommendations

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Renato Simioni, Apr 4, 2020.

  1. vortex

    vortex Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    21
    Not a specific dig at you but this seems to be a common complaint which should not be happening, in my opinion. If the FFB for a particular car feels weak, for example, then that's either how it's supposed to feel compared to other cars or there's something wrong with the data coming from the game for that car. We shouldn't need car-specific FFB settings other than for wanting all cars to feel the same (which may be what some people want but just isn't realistic).
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Goffik

    Goffik Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2020
    Messages:
    413
    Likes Received:
    273
    "Supposed to" in who's opinion? FFB is subjective and hugely based on personal preference, which is why there are so many different opinions for every single FFB-enabled racing sim ever made. Some people want strong FFB, some people weak, some want it dependent on the car they're driving, etc etc. People should be able to set their preferences without having to tweak the main settings every time they switch car. That's the purpose of having per-car multipliers and that's why Reiza are adding them.

    Also FYI, half the effects we get though FFB aren't "realistic" per se, nevermind the strength. They're created to try and replace all the effects we would normally receive through our bodies, but can't in a simulator. (Without motion rigs etc.)
     
    • Like Like x 5
  3. buddhatree

    buddhatree Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2016
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    22
    Real cars don't have FFB, bro. If you don't want to use car-specific FFB, then don't.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. vortex

    vortex Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    21
    I couldn't agree more - hence the fact that we have these massive threads about FFB for every sim!

    That's exactly what I said! But I also don't think we should need to have individual FFB files for each car unless you don't believe that what Reiza programmed in to the car is correct. If that's the case, then that's something that Reiza should be addressing rather than something they should expect us to change. To me, it's sloppy programming if some cars feel much more realistic than others and we have to compensate for this with our own files.

    Yes they do - it just happens naturally! What do you think it is we're try to simulate through the wheel in the game?

    I didn't say that you shouldn't be able to do it, just that in my opinion it shouldn't be necessary. If you don't think a car "feels" correct such that you think that the FFB settings need to be adjusted away from your global AMS2 settings, you should be asking Reiza to review it, not rely on individuals to change it to what they think is correct (which very, very few of us would actually know for sure). All you're doing then is making the car feel the way you want it to, not necessarily the way it should feel. I can understand that some people may be more than happy with doing that, but it takes some of the responsibility away from Reiza. In my opinion, all cars available in the game should be built and optimised to the same level. And yes, I'm aware that this is still EA, but I'm hoping that they will all be to a similar standard when the release version hits the streets soon.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Sampo

    Sampo Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2020
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    12
    How does one know how realistic the cars feel? How can one know how they "should" feel?
     
  6. Dean Ogurek

    Dean Ogurek Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2016
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    263
    If we have realistic FFB in simulation, it will be really dull and boring by comparison. It's easy to test in some titles where the details and under-steer effects can be independently reduced to zero (RR for example).

    Ironically, automotive journalists and RL race-car drivers want more feedback through the steering than most cars can provide. In simulation, we are blessed to have more data than some know how to process.

    Just because something is more realistic doesn't automatically mean having a better experience in simulation terms, imo. Removing adjustable parameters / effects in FFB is like removing tone and balance controls from hi-fi audio systems while believing that it will actually enhance the user experience for all.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  7. tlsmikey

    tlsmikey Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2016
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    75
    I generally agree with what you're saying here. If you've ever raced or done track days you realize how little actually comes through the wheel.

    However, the FFB in its current state leaves a lot to be desired for me. I don't think its even up to AMS1 standards, much less where ACC has gone in recent releases. I'm still hoping they get it together, but without an FFB patch in the last update I think they've decided they're close enough and seem to be leaving it alone. If this is indeed the case, I think this title will struggle badly.

    In terms of steering feel, I don't have that feeling of the tires digging in and letting go with the current FFB. I get some of it in the high downforce cars (F1 Gen 3 Classic) and this makes sense because one of the only good cars in PCars2 was a high downforce car (Indycar). The low downforce cars are dreadful to me. Lots of over the top steering forces, nothing mid center and just a very numb slidey feeling overall. That's my readout of it at least.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Dean Ogurek

    Dean Ogurek Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2016
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    263
    I don't feel as though AMS2 FFB is as nuanced as in AMS1 / rF2 where front grip is concerned but, it does a pretty good job overall. It can be a bit hard to tell if it's more related to physics or ffb at this point but, I feel like it's not too far off with a little more refinement.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  9. Goffik

    Goffik Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2020
    Messages:
    413
    Likes Received:
    273
    I think you're confusing what Reiza said they are doing. They are not providing us with separate FFB settings per car, they are adding a per-car multiplier. All this will do is increase or decrease the overall FFB strength for individual cars, just like it does in RaceRoom. It does not mean every car will have gain/LFB/FX sliders.

    Again, FFB is not meant to add "realism". It is meant to help the car communicate with the driver. In REAL life most of the forces communicating what a car is doing come from the car itself via vibrations, g-forces, etc... NOT through the steering wheel. FFB is designed to help replace these forces and so is inherently "unrealistic" in many ways.

    Which is exactly what every player should be able to do. Making the FFB feel the way that communicates the forces you want in the way that you want them, and that helps your driving the most, is paramount to many people's enjoyment of any sim.

    I'm going to link to a post by @BazzaLB because he explained FFB and the reasons behind it being so subjective very well indeed. You can read his explanation by clicking here.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. Cfst

    Cfst Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    167
    Likes Received:
    58
    some interesting comments here, particularly peoples' differing opinions in what can be felt vs not felt, through race car's steering wheel in real life. good thing there are still 3 sliders there to say the least! ;)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. NightHawk

    NightHawk New Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2020
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Any reccomended config for a Thrustmaster T300RS GTE ?
     
  12. Romeo Foxtrot

    Romeo Foxtrot Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2020
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    17
    Quick answer: I use a T300RS with the open formula wheel with factory defaults, I use 35-40-40 in most cars, 20-80-40 in heavier steering cars.

    Longer answer: Here's my process with each new update. I first set the Gain, LFB and FX to zero and do a some gentle to fast laps without any FFB.

    I increase Gain until the steering feels about the right for the car(s) at speed. I go up in increments of 10 and down in decrements of 5 but do what works best for you. You might work from 100 backwards. The Gain controls the amount of force the game transmits to simulate forces normally felt through the steering wheel, i.e. lateral grip.

    Increase LFB until the steering feels right going in a straight line, on a gentle reconnaissance lap, pulling out of the pit garage, doing an about turn in a run off area, etc. The LFB amplifies forces that are quite low in normal driving but may not be felt with some wheels. Gear driven wheels, like Logitech, may need more LFB to overcome the 'noise' felt from the cogs. Belt driven wheels, like Thrustmaster, may need somewhat less and direct drive wheels may not need much at all, if any.

    Increase the FX to introduce the forces that would normally be felt in the chassis than in the wheel such as engine vibration, tyre scrub, jolts. Driving too quickly over a sleeping policeman is usually felt more in the seat (and the ears!) than felt through the steering wheel itself. When sitting in a motionless chair sending a shock through the steering wheel reinforces the perception of reality (by not being authentic). That's what the FX is for.

    You may not be happy with the same Gain in different cars; the Ultima might feel too heavy and the F-V12 too light, for example. There may or may not be a grail setting.

    I don't do so well with back to back comparisons so I tend to make changes just before exiting the program and seeing if I notice a difference on my first drive of the next day.

    It's all very personal but after driving the formula cars I have to lower the Gain in the Ultima and Lancer cars, to avoid fatigue and numbing myself to the forces. Lowering the Gain in a heavier car seems to need a bit more LFB.

    I wouldn't try too hard in Early Access to get it just right. The game may not be offering the forces we're hoping for just yet so just try to live with what we have. I don't think I can feel it when the car lets go at the back quite the same way in this game as I did in ISI gMotor games but, for now, it is what it is. I sometimes find myself continuing on an arc towards the armco and feeling nothing, the F-3 at Turn 6 at Jerez, for example. I find trail braking helps to overcome that. The Ultima, on the other hand, needs to corner under power so trail braking isn't an option.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 2
  13. MarcG

    MarcG Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2016
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    181
    oops - nvm
     
  14. vortex

    vortex Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    21
    You ask a real-world driver who's driven that car to try it in the sim and comment. It's never going to fell exactly like the real car but getting somewhere near it is what you're aiming for.

    One of the big claims made by Kunos for ACC during EA was that they were aiming for realistic FFB without any artificial inputs. It was initially criticised by some as being a little bland but now seems to be praised by most people so it can, apparently, be done.

    I have no problem with giving people the tools to do that if they want to. What I don't want (me, personally) is to have to do it to compensate for big differences in the quality of FFB between cars. That should be something Reiza sorts out.

    There's a whole thread for the T300/TX here: Thrustmaster TX/T300 FFB setup

    However, as I summarised in my post there (based on recommendations from the many posts in that thread), you should have the gain between 30% and 100%, LFB between 40% and 80% and FX between 15% and 60% for best results! I tried many of the suggestions there and, frankly, couldn't understand how anyone could possibly think that they were so good. There is no single perfect/correct solution.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Dean Ogurek

    Dean Ogurek Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2016
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    263
    I'm one who has never warmed to ACC's FFB. There is almost no sense of under-steer and what little scrub effect may exist occurs too late in the very narrow margin (Threshold). The fine bump effects (road details) are completely muted during under-steer.

    AMS1 / AMS2 and rF2 provide much better front grip loss cues imo. The falloff-effect in ACC is not the best way to represent under-steer and Kunos way of constraining user choice is unfortunate. They went a bit too far with the authoritarian-like approach to ffb imo but, no title is perfect. I know many enjoy the ffb in ACC, good for them but, I'm not one to simply follow the herd either. o_O:)
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 2
  16. SwaggerJacker

    SwaggerJacker Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2020
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    53
    Agreed. Real cars have "Feedback", we have Force Feedback, or Forced Feedback. How else do we simulate feedback? Someone is picking nits.
     
  17. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2020
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    99
    Exactly my thoughts, if I cant have g-force and some car bodylanguage, I want to have somethingin the FFB.
    I sort of like ACC but also dont like unreal engine in racing, with the "numb" FFB that seems more binary than progressive, its not a lot of fun to actually drive. As soon as I jumped into RF2 or AMS2, I got so much enjoyement out of pure driving in comparison.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. shushkata

    shushkata New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2020
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    3
    Have you noticed, for example at Kyalami, driving the low end formulas (it can be relevant to other cars too) when going off track in the gravel and the car starts to rattle and jump because of the off track geometry, the FFB gets crazy. Even when you are off the ground the forces are really heavy and almost all the time are drastically pulling the car to one side. They are also getting stronger, opposite to the logic i guess. Even with my T300 (not the strongest of wheels) i hardly can hold the rim.
     
  19. shushkata

    shushkata New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2020
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    3
    I think it's more because of the GT3 cars, than the FFB really. Those cares are not that lively open-wheeler you get to drive here. Actually as much has i researched trough the wars, GT3 cars are really numb to drive - stiff, hard and all.
     
  20. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2020
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    99
    Probably yeah .. but even in RF2 the GT3 cars felt a bit more "readable" in terms of FFB. Albeit using effects. Im willing to sacrifice a bit of realism to get a nicer feeling tbh.
     

Share This Page