Automobilista 2 V1.1.2.0 RELEASED - Now updated to v1.1.2.5

Could you maybe elaborate this a bit?
I mean elaborate based of what you feel when you drive some of the cars in AMS2 - and not based on the more entertaining outpourings from the creators of as example the Madness engine.
Hehe or the most fanboy-ish outpourings from the most affectionate AMS2 tifosis

ByTheWay: Im asking because eventhough I feel and consider the behaviour of certain (!) cars in AMS2 as more "convincing" than cars in competing racing games - then I dont consider AMS2 as something completely different than (yes) just another racing game.

 

Ok.

First off, maybe ‘paradigm’ was a bit of a clumsy choice of word. What I was trying to say was regarding judging a sim from videos alone (and comparing it to either real onboard footage or other sims) does not really tell the full story because we are not comparing like for like.

A developer has to make certain decisions about what they simulate and how they do it. So things such as camera movement are not exact copies of reality -they can’t be. A real life onboard camera is not trying to convince the viewer that they are the driver. It is just a camera (usually fixed). A simulator on the other hand is trying to convince the player they are the driver. So design decisions are made to enable that ‘trick’. The camera, the ffb, haptic feedback (buttkickers etc), the sound all contribute to this trick.

To me, having the camera set to legacy mode with world movement at 0 gives the most realistic feeling. However, I find it slightly uncomfortable, so I set WM to 25. Other people prefer the new camera mode, which to me feels very disconnected and frankly, weird.

So I as a player can quickly change a single setting and suddenly the game feels odd / floaty / weird. So therefore I think it’s a a fair assumption to say that watching videos alone does not really enable the viewer to judge the accuracy of the physics simulation.

We all know that the Madness camera is different to other sims, so how can a comparison be made from videos? Similarly, from my limited understanding, Madness uses quite a different tyre model to other sims. So whether you have played 100s of hours of AC or watched 100s of hours of onboard videos it is pretty irrelevant, the total experience is what should be compared, if one has not experienced a simulation with their own settings, passively comparing videos does not tell the full story, that is what I meant when I used the word ‘paradigm’. Maybe I should have said ‘we are not comparing apples with apples’. Also, the assumption is being made that the other sims are ‘right’, when really, there is no ‘right’.

Photos and videos are not reality, they are a facsimile of reality. I’ve seen landscape paintings that give me a better feeling of a place than a photo of that place. I could spend all day telling you what a mango tastes like, I could show you thousands of photos of mangoes, but unless you taste a mango, you will never know. Ok, so you are a fruit expert, you’ve eaten hundreds of other fruits from all around the world, it doesn’t change a single thing, a mango is a mango. Maybe we could agree that the texture is similar to a peach, but it doesn’t really help. It’s a different fruit (paradigm)!

Certain cars in AMS2 feel amazingly believable to me (F trainer for example), I have never experienced this in another sim, I don’t believe this could be deduced from a video. (Btw, some cars don’t feel great too).

If I had the inclination I could find YT videos of AMS2 looking really believable (Race Beyond Matter or Boosted Media), and I could equally find videos where it looks flat or floaty. So I can draw no (or very limited) conclusions from those videos. Now compare from sim to sim or sim to real life and we are really not able to conclude anything meaningful.

By the way, what happens if you write a post and there is nothing more to say at the end....? Do you intentionally split your posts, or do you not post until you do?

 

Now we're asking the real questions! Lets get to the bottom of this.

ByTheWay: I understand the paradigm thing. The way bumps, grip and FFB is handled throughout is different and really clicks with me. A lot of stuff works in a unique way and is not comparable to the known sim world. Someone else might value correct end result higher even if via simplified physical modeling. And I also like those other sims where it's like this. But ultimately the simulation of all the driving feel detail is what draws me back in, not great competitive online logic, inputs matching 1:1 with the real thing and so on. I do of course hope that AMS2 is also realistic and I don't have to relearn how to drive. But on the other hand nothing is ever perfectly realistic and you always have to relearn how to drive to a degree. I value great awareness of the car over learned inputs from sim B translating over. ARC Camaro is nothing like a GT3 car so it doesn't matter how much you know how to drive GT3 in sim B.

PS. I'm not teasing about the BTW. I've also been wondering about that paradigm .

 

Ok the next videos make clear what I meant.
Look at this video (it happens in other parts of the video as well) at 5:45 and look how the front reacts (and you see that in other cars as well) both in cockpit as wel as replay cam.

And then look at this and you see non of this behavior.

 

I did not know that. But I can show this behaviour of any car in the sim.

 

Look at 3:43 and 4:05 and some other places.

 

You see the same behavior. Only the tyre isn't pulled off the road here.
If I see more obvious stuff then I will let you know. It seems also connected with the car more easily slipping away when it happens.

 

I read your lengty post - and at least appreciate you tried to explain what you meant with your "paradigm" comment.
But I have to say that Im not much interested in all your considerations about videos of how AMS2 looks (on Youtube I guess).
We all own AMS2 so lets base talk about the physics and tire model of how it feels behind our plastic wheel.
And your camera considerations in AMS2 is OK interesting - but have not enourmous relevance when we discuss if the physics and TM in AMS2 express a completely other paradigm than all other racing sims.
My own oppinion about the physics and TM part of the Madness engine is that just like similiar engines in as example iRacing and rF2 are different - none of them does represent anything completely new - hehe or next-gen.
They are just different from each other - because they feels different.
The "only" thing Reiza has done is to input different parameters into the existing pCars2 Madness engine.
And "only" here does NOT mean something quite insignificant

ByTheWay: If Reiza changed the camera settings (like solved the legacy/non-legacy problems ) then I guess nobody would say: Oh AMS2 has now got a completely new paradigm conserning the physics and tire model.

Quite honestly I dont understand what the meaning is with this last part. Is there a point?

 

Or remove his internet.

 

Do you guys want me to stop? Because I don't want to become the whiney guy that is just plain wrong. Am I seeing ghosts? I can see it in every car but the extent to how much the car is lifted depends on the car. But if nobody sees it that way and is fine with it, then I just stop. Imo most of the spins seem to be connected to how the weight is transferred and how the car seems to pull and maybe it also have something to do with the bounciness.
And for the wheel. If I really wanted I can buy a wheel. I just find it expensive for just one genre and the problem is that I don't have the place for it. But this is the first time I am getting pulled to buying one and playing more on PC this and DCS (now we are talking a joystick too )

 

there are a couple of iRacing guys that run big 70Nm servo's but, they don't run them at full power. They mainly use them for their natural characteristics in regard to inertia.