Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - News & Announcements' started by Renato Simioni, Mar 31, 2021.
theres time penalty if you hit them , it’s like a chicane designed to filter 3 wide cars.
I think the same as you. And I don't think it is Reiza's fault. Look at ACC, yes they had it rough at the beginning but you saw it was a complete game and already quite complete. With that I mean the concept was very clear, they came up with the sim from basically the ground up.
This is not the case with this one. Here you come with basically a game that they needed to mold to their hand. They are also so small that they need the money. That means they have to fix things and cannot wait a long time before it came out.
Like ideally the sim needed at least another year to release it. But that is not viable.
That is the problem I always had with PC2 and it transfers to this one. It doesn't feel like a complete release. That comes with all these fine details that need to be dialed in.
It even looks like the physics are not dialed in yet. And here is where Reiza shines. They keep working at it relentlessly.
But there are so many things and with more content the more problems you add.
So I think the UI and fonts and all the game design must be totally complete all the physics must be done to 95% and there are still way too many bugs in it.
With that, your multiplayer must also be top-notch these days. ACC netcode is not topnotch but they can get away with it because everything else is so slick.
But that is not the case with AMS2 and so it adds to the injury.
So I think it flows from the case that they are such a small team and don't have so much money. Because we can all see that they are very good developers.
If I'm allowed to quickly add my 2 cents to this...
Because there are recurring criticisms that are beginning to irk me in a bad way.
First off, Reiza are punching above their weight, certainly not below it.
Compared to other titles released years ago now, the rate of progress Reiza have made in 1 year is commendable. With somebody else's (broken) game engine, mind you.
rFactor 2 only really gained notoriety after Studio 397 got rolling with it. Never mind AC, that left quite a few things to be desired until the last couple years, when talented modders burst onto the scene with SOL and stuff.
The "problem" as I see it, is that the titles that came previously have established a baseline, a standard of expectation for newer titles to live up to. This is for all intents and purposes both a blessing and a curse...
Measuring things against an established standard can be good for quality, it can however also be unrealistic, and create perceived disappointment when really there should be none.
I'm going to repeat stuff that's been said before, but apparantly won't sink in with some people; Reiza have to do things the way they are, even if to some that's never good enough.
If they release lots of content, the critique you'll hear is, "fix the core game first!" and vice versa.
Everything, I mean, everything to a certain extent is a WIP until the title is officially ended as a project, or it's decided it is 100% good enough and nothing can be improved anymore, but let's face it, there's always a little something.
Other dev teams have done things differently in the past, and we got Pcars2(and 3...), "Here you go guys, this is it, enjoy!" honestly, that was a title rife with mediocrity and left lots to be desired.
SO much exciting stuff in the pipeline for this year, and every month it's "But they didn't fix this, why isn't that done yet?!".
Can we maybe just appreciate how far certain cars have come? 'specially after the last update? This is a win with each new build, a glass half full, I'm willing to wager the title will barely be recognisable compared to its former self in 6 months time. But patience is a rare commodity these days.
Simracing is incredibly "niche", it may well appear to have boomed somewhat since the Cov, but comparatively, it's still very small. EA, Codies or whomever bought them recently, and all the other mainstream publishers will not make you a decent sim(I know Dirt Rally maaaaybe, pfff..), they cater to millions, not thousands.
We are stuck with a handful of small companies, and the prospect of AC2 and a dedicated BTCC game from the people that took over rF2, for the near future. Until then, sim afficionados are stuck with what is now, and if they largely enjoy it, the only recourse is to support it in one way or another. (Not moan and whine every time an update doesn't check everyting on "their" wishlist.)
I can't say enough good things about the recent physics overhaul, it's transformative, and is starting to reveal the true potential that hides within. As well as "fixing" my laptimes...
Would not mind this big of a step forward a month from now.
If by now, one can't find anything to enjoy in this title, I'm sorry to say, it's you, it's all you at this point.
Race what you enjoy, make a multiplayer session happen(it's not all up to Reiza to "fix" that for you, they know what needs work...)and I'm not even that big of an online dude and can still make it work... Support, be patient. All in good time.
Rant over, GearNazi out... (drops mic...)
I agree completely that Reiza is punching above its weight. That is in a sense a frustrating thing. Because now it seems like they need to clean up the mess and mold it to a finished game (you know what I mean) that is left by someone else.
And to add that this is even more difficult with such a sim like this. Because you basically have a set of tools to make races and championships and such. So it already is a loose structure. If it doesn't feel finished or have that gloss sheen like for example ACC where everything looks super mature (even if you don't like its physics or ffb) then it creates a bigger problem because of its looser structure.
And yeah we know why Reiza operates the way it does. In my eyes, the extra content is not a problem at all. It is that the base structure is not robust enough.
It is one thing to tinker at the edges, but another where there are still so many bugs or that it doesn't feel mature enough physics-wise or ffb. You see that with the way they are still playing with the UI and how it gets revamped or that there is still wrong information and much more.
The great thing is that Reiza works very hard and listens very well to their customers.
But yes Reiza are great developers. I hope that one day they can even add people to the team and develop a sim from the ground up.
I would agree with you if the game was still in a beta or work in progress state, physics that change completely feels like a guess and try out game, not an improvement, as some cars changed completely the way they feel and handle, would you buy a house that doesn't have a stable foundation? but it has many rooms and a big TV and with swimming pool, even with a broken foundation, I am not just complaining, I really like the game, but these small things is what keeps it from being great, and when you see time spent in other areas of the game " I love the idea of drones and vr cameras for tracks" , but why not fix objects flickering, improve textures, optimize the tracks further. it's the artist job too" I appreciate their work, I know it is hard for a small team, I loved to hear that Shr Modding joined reiza, so let him start addind some audio improvements to the game it is a must, there should be at least one team member responsible to bring changes to the multiplayer, no need to rush, but be open about what is possible and what isn't, about the bugs for the game engine, it was their choice to use it, they are very talented, I know that they can improve a lot the game, I hope they can achieve their goal with the game, I just hope it won't take too long.
we sometimes sound ungrateful and hash with the words, but it's hard to express our feelings with words and in some cases we get misunderstood, I don't mean to be a pain in the ass, this is just my point of view from where I stand. I really hope this game gets to a point where we say it is done and they can bring to consoles to bring them more income, I bought the game and all the dlcs as soon as the game came out to give my support to them. just keep it coming Reiza and never give up!
Yes it was their choice to use that engine. But they got an offer they couldn't refuse.
What other possibilities did they have?
You also know what you got into. You know they will be tinkering away till it is perfect.
I am just afraid that it keeps them little where they could be much more successful.
Everything goes so fast these times that you have little time to get things right. Yes, you have a hardcore community that knows how Reiza operates and delivers.
They also know it is a long road. Sadly this is holding them back because by the time it can really shine they don't have many people that join in and then you are locked with people that are happy but is, unfortunately, a small group.
When AMS2 wasn't out and I didn't know AMS I googled it once and looked at youtube and I was shocked how good the audio was. I don't have the feeling of that now but I don't think it is awful either (what do you miss?).
The biggest problems are the physics and the bugs and the unfinished feeling overall that are probably not right or good enough now and this creates big changes all over the board.
They cannot avoid that now because the sim is out and they do care so much to get it right. And they should be applauded for it. That's why I like them and not SMS.
I don't know the state of the netcode. But that is also that has to be very good as soon as you can.
It all sounds very critical but Reiza themselves are doing a really great job, sadly they are not in a great situation to get more successful. Which is a petty because I would like to see them shine because they deserve it.
I know its got its flaws and things that make us wanna tugg our hair out (just like they all do), but just wanted quickly say before I go to bed. I had the best fricking time in AMS2 today (pretty much most of the day). Now sort out all the bugs please and I wont go bald! (bloody good day though!)
How big's the TV..?
So what sims have been released in the last 5 or 10 years that haven't had issues? None that I can recall. So how is this any different? At least Reiza are dedicated to improving the product in all areas and they do updates quickly. It should not even be questionable that they will do the right thing. Games are so much more complex nowadays, partly because of technological advancements that allow them to be and partly because they want something that makes them stand out from others and partly because that is what the end user wants.
There is a saying that Rome wasn't built in a day, that is true for software as well. If we waited for games to be completely polished prior to release then we would be waiting much longer for release and then people would complain about that as well.
Then people whine about releasing DLC when there are other game issues that need fixing first. Well usually the bug fixers aren't the ones creating content and secondly if they dont release content to supplement the revenue how can they still afford to operate and pay those that are creating and fixing, this is a complex scenario and is being looked at very myopically by some people.
If you dont like where the game is then simple; don't play it and dont buy more content for it.
How many times have you gone out for dinner or a night on the p@ss with mates where it has cost more than this title? Those experiences only lasted a few hours. How many hours have you logged on AMS2? If you felt satisfied with your meals or night outs that only lasted a few hours then why should AMS2 be any different, logging a number of hours should then also have given you your money's worth.
It is a case of they are damned if they do and are damned if they dont.
Some people seriously need more patience. That is a big issue with society generally nowadays, it is all me me me and now now now.
Not only that, but I can't think of a racing sim that has f1 cars ranging from the 60s all the way to modern day turbo hybrid, out of the box, no mods needed (but if you want, you get custom skins on race department of course) terrific force feedback, and AI that is improving a lot.
Let me compare this to the other sim I would consider playing offline against the AI. RF2? unfortunately, asr formulas 1991 mod (while very very good) is a league edition mod, (for you readers who might not know what that is, it means that all cars share the same physics, and performance I think too.)
It's the only sim out there where I feel content with the formula one content, mods or not. So I'm happy, and can only continue getting happier as updates drop.
I think they've already slowed down the release of the content quite a bit to make more room for core development (Historic Track Pack, Spa 1970's, Multiplayer Ranking System.. etc).
And that has made us a fantastic racing game so far.
I think the dev's divide the time they have well across all aspects of the game.
We could help by giving meaningful feedback in this thread.
Did we get this yet?
It doesn't appear so. I'm looking forward to it as well and hoping for some more variety.
The current championships are weighted towards F1 and other highly professional series.
Whereas I'm wanting to live my dreams a struggling club racer in Brazil or Europe somewhere.
Does that mean the AI will no longer use the same livery as the player as long as the total number of cars in the race is equal to or less than the total number of liveries available?
No, it still seems to have the double up, happens to me anyway.
This may be true for the GT4 Ginetta, but it's not true for other cars. You can quite clearly see ABS kicking in (here in the Porsche Cup 3.8) by looking at the wheel speed in telemetry and observing an up and down see-saw like pattern. By turning it off completely you can introduce lockups with all the smoke and screeching you would expect. Using ABS at too high a setting will increase braking distances and in some cases create a FFB effect pulling the car from side to side.
People, stop focusing too much in what is missing or buggy and just try to enjoy the game. If you don't like how it is right now, come back later and maybe it will be better for you once it has improved.
There is no perfect sim racing game, all of them have flaws, bugs and unfinished features. Even the highly praised ACC, which is considered a polished game, has lots of bugs: two times I got my career mode bugged, I have had many races where the pit stop timers were not working correctly and its AI is far from the being the best one, or some of them were addressed only recently, after two years and half of the release (save race not working on pit-stops, multiplayer filters, better tire model, etc...). AMS2 is far from being perfect, but a lot us still enjoy it and there are many things on it that keep us coming back. It is a shame that it is not popular as we would like it to be, but it is already more successful and popular than its predecessor, which is not a small task. Maybe it will never be as popular as the other big sims, but who cares, I will still play it.
And a good thing, it seems to be the sim currently being developed at the faster pace. So maybe one day it will get to the point that we would like it to.
I must say in the last few months I am a bit confused about the direction of AMS2.
Already in February we heard that the "physics to the extent that setups are concerned should remain a lot more stable". There have been two major physics revisions since then, with no end in sight. Fortunately those revisions improved the game quite a bit, but the niggling issues with some cars are still there. Likewise, there has been a lot of effort made on fixing the rain physics and AI in the rain, but since the physics still keep changing I'm not sure how fruitful this exercise is.
More worrying is the lack of direction and unexplained delays in the new content. Long Beach and Daytona(?) were teased already in January, implying that maybe an Indycar was coming as part of Racin' USA, but somehow that morphed into more versions of Jacarepagua and Lotus 79 in March. And whatever happened to historic Nordschleife? While I'm certainly not complaining about the Lotus 79, it's quite difficult to understand these decisions without an updated roadmap.
The major new gameplay feature, custom championships, was delayed again, yet we still have no mention of whether it will actually address the major shortcomings of the current championships: in the end you are just running a bunch of single races against fictional liveries driven by Reiza employees and backers, with no way to customise the AI driver names and performance levels. Honestly, I can already do that by running single races and keeping track of the points myself in a spreadsheet. Or I could if AMS2 didn't randomise the AI driver names in every single race. If you really want to capture the AMS1 offline racer player base, at some point there needs to be a way to do a fully customised offline championship with custom liveries, custom AI names and related performance levels. And maybe finally spend the afternoon it takes to implement the feature that prevents the AI from always picking the same livery as the player.
Even as someone who generally enjoys lapping around various circuits in AMS2, it's getting a bit samey these days. We need more gameplay features to keep people engaged, and more polish on the existing features.
That's why they were applied after all.
A little side note related to that topic, because i think, transparency regarding that might be just fair:
I don't want to play an impostor here, full credit goes to Reiza for improving the physics to a next step, to make that clear. The thing, why i'm saying this, is because i take some kind of responsibility for that one here because of planting an "old itch" to @Renato Simioni due to discussing findings and the demand for a better working underlying system here and it was becoming clear pretty fast, that the changes, that were applied in testing, were actually worth the additional struggle, to make cars in the sim more enjoyable.
It has delayed some things (some things were delayed also to ensure better polish, unrelated to the physics updates, btw.) and threw back others a bit, that had to be re-adjusted to work again (AI straightline calibration out of whack, for example) but the driveline revisions were originially not planned to take place so fast again.
It was "just" an opportunity to take NOW, to make room for the game and optimization around it for the future to come, so exactly, what the demand shifts to, right now. You can expect more focus on that in the next weeks, i'm certain about that.
Yes, i'm sure there will be some for a bit, but somewhere a balance has to be found now, for the sim getting improvements to a more polished package as a whole, that we all definetly want to see as users, for a more enjoyable experience!
So to conclude this:
The underlying physics will surely continiously receive fine tunings, but major revisions like the ones right now, that got pushed inbetween are getting calmed down!
I hope, i was able to take away some of these concerns.
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