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Reaction to Ermin's Video

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by steelreserv, Apr 22, 2021.

  1. Maser V6

    Maser V6 Old School. Enjoying AMS2.. ASSISTS OFF RACING Reiza Backer

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    Agreed wholeheartedly Thats the shame of its type. The main reason I even commented here in fact.
    I said this before with u tubers vids being discussed on various threads and there merits and also lack of it.
    till RS shut them down/commented
    I think its a fundamental that it affects sales of any product. It will put off, its not a potential imo. It will just be an unknown number. It becomes more than just an 'opinion'. We all buy things or not based on reviews be it a gpu,tv or sim/wheel etc. sad fact of life that some tubers run as a business based on such and are sometimes very inaccurate. This is why more than anything I said above.

    QUOTE="Maser V6, post: 128938, member: 16156"]Could we all make a video to praise what we like? Yes[/QUOTE]

    YES yes yes indeed.
    :D:D:D:D
    Outnumber them with more accurate proof of why your here.
    Enjoyment I get is enough to keep me here in AMS2
    Just my Opinion of course!!
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2021
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  2. stealthradek

    stealthradek Member

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    Great response @steelreserv - truth had to be told. Some people are just stuck trying to knock down anything based on comparisons to best hand picked features of other titles but forgetting about bigger picture.

    I'm glad that there's so much variety in classes, I prefer this from having one or two complete classes. So praised AC took that model and that's never even a question. It allows trying so many different things. Not every game needs to focus on a single series.

    There was that point about ACC having that major 5-point tire contact update and lack of it in AMS2. You don't bring that sort of update if you don't need to :whistle: So given cars are not immediately spinning after hitting the kerb means there's no need for such update and will never happen.

    I've cherry picked couple of counterpoints but overall I was nodding to your responses.

    It's such a shame the previous title on Madness engine was PC2 as people just shove it in the simcade box and stop caring. Even worse when they are wrongly bragging about it and spreading false info. Does that count as fake news? o_O

    Keep up the good work and see you on your next video!
     
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  3. steelreserv

    steelreserv Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Thanks! Its definitely proven to be fake news. Even the tire model.

    Check how many points on the seta model.
    Inside Project CARS Seta Tire Model – WMD Portal

    its all about what Reiza has done with the engine, that is what matters.
     
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  4. Beccobunsen

    Beccobunsen Active Member

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    I thinks Ermin is not very harmfull in this way, jimmy and his "meh" review instead, is moving weight. And after this he went commando on F12020..the mysterius ways of selling itself
     
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  5. Synaks

    Synaks Member

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    Honestly I don't think we should be defending the madness engine for anything but graphics, that link to wmd is essentially marketing material, and there are some big problems that come with the madness engine. One of which is the on/off nature of the differentials. I'm not saying that reiza hasn't done a great job fixing it, as they did with diffs a few weeks ago(for the most part), but this engine hasn't made reiza's job any easier.
     
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  6. steelreserv

    steelreserv Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Great example, I mean did he bump the car to 100% boost, probably not. Did he stiffen the rear springs, probably not. The car notoriously squats for driveability. So like, you can get the Group C's to be monsters, its within the capabilities of the game and its demonstrably faster to do so. so he used like a "casual' setting which is what I consider the defaults kinda to be like.
     
  7. tpw

    tpw Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Ermin is obviously a smart bloke, he would have known full well how hypocritical, disingenuous, unbalanced and inflammatory his clip was before even uploading it. But hey, controversy = clicks = $, and he's a businessman as he's pointed out on numerous occasions. Like most of us, I (and most likely Reiza themselves) agree that he has some valid points, but they're lost in the smug hypocrisy.

    In a perfect world Reiza would have used the early access period to get AMS2's fundamentals (physics, ffb, AI, career, multiplayer, UI and UX) nailed with base content. Obviously business realities, global pandemics, and the enormity of the port across to a different engine, have meant that they are instead playing catchup with these fundamentals in full release, with the ever increasing roster of content making it harder to present a truly coherent visual/audio/handling/driving/UX experience across the extremely diverse tracks and cars. Despite amazing progress (with a few backwards steps) there are still some fundamental issues with AMS2, but they don't seem to be anything that time and effort by Reiza can't address. And unlike some other developers moving at glacial pace fixing gaping flaws in their titles, Reiza's development pace is phenomenal and their communication skills exemplary. How Ermin or anyone can make a negative out of this positive is beyond me, but he spends a lot of his time doing just that.

    Beyond $, I'm not sure what Ermin hopes to achieve with this clip. Does he believe the effort he puts into making youtube videos of driving sims somehow puts him on an equal footing with the people who sweat bullets to make those sims? Does he believe he's influential enough to shame Reiza into making the specific game he wants? Is he hoping that Reiza will be so upset at not meeting his expectations that they'll just give up? Is he hoping that by scaring away potential customers and users he'll create a wake up call to Reiza? Does he want AMS2 users to see the light about how wrong they are to enjoy this title and desert it? Is he wanting to further reduce user choice in an already niche area?

    At the end of the day, my opinions of AMS2 are not dependent on youtube commentators/influencers. In a niche hobby where all the main software players are flawed to some degree, I enjoy watching people who talk up the positives.
     
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  8. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence German localization/Testing Reiza Backer

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    Believe me, the material is not just marketing...the STM is indeed pretty advanced especially when it comes to degradation and tread simulation, there are some really interesting features (the reason, why AMS2 isn't a "0.050 consistency per lap" sim) and the weather system is one of the most refined on the consumer market, when implemented correctly.

    Raised complexicity is a downside with getting into it better for the guys working on it, of course (driveline model as an example on the physics side here), but when getting a grasp on it, it bears things in the future, that really give unique possibilities.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
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  9. Marius H

    Marius H Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Guys, I don't give a shiiittttt about influencers/streamer. I only trust Crimson, Coanda, Marc, Ettore, and some others here on the forum. They know their stuff much much much much better than these people. So I do suggest others. Get rid of youtube, etc and in some form Racedepartment and Reddit/Simracing and you're good to go :p
     
  10. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace BANNED BANNED

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    YES yes yes indeed.
    :D:D:D:D
    Outnumber them with more accurate proof of why your here.
    Enjoyment I get is enough to keep me here in AMS2
    Just my Opinion of course!![/QUOTE]

    Are you 10? Ermin looks after Ermin. Maser looks after Maser.

    If we're going to start to live our lives and make purchases based specifically off his decisions with what's best for his channel which is what the video was, we're in a lot of trouble.

    Those 10k already own the game. Who asked should they buy it?

    Come on mate. None of them. That's why everyone was left scratching their heads.

    Go into a star citizen debate. Dozens of people wondering if the critique was true and should they buy it.

    Ermins reach is not huge. He's not got sim racing cornered. He's an enthusiast with a clear bias and preference for other sims.

    He made something like 3 or so ams2 praising vids. He didn't drop a bomb or tell us anything we didn't know. And the video was construed by an attention hungry audience to be hugely bad. He was actually talking about why his CHANNEL doesn't feature it. He also happens to hate it and does not play it.

    edit: all I am saying here, to the disliked-giving person, mate he was telling essentially a bunch of AMS2 fans that he didn't like the game. It was preaching negative to the converted. If that was him apologizing for not covering the game a little more on his channel, it was a strange way of going about it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
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  11. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace BANNED BANNED

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    Come on. You're just another sheep in the heard.

    Yet here you are. Call us when you make good on that. Don't drop YouTube over this stuff man. When you begin forming your own opinions on things that's when you'll feel comfortable listening to others.

    No one's an expert. It's basic mechanical knowledge. Reiza are still discovering the workings of the engine.

    Branch out more on your own and look up stuff off your own study goals. Stop relying on all that. Drive your car harder. You honestly think g27 owning teen-agers should govern your life and limit your knowledge to what they know?
     
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  12. John Hargreaves

    John Hargreaves Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    If you read any of Renato's posts on the matter, I think he might disagree with this statement too.
     
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  13. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace BANNED BANNED

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    Yeah, just on that... lol why do you think Star Citizen doesn't look like Far Cry 1? Example: do you think the texture memory usage in far cry engine is any more difficult than in unreal? Like its not true that a 1mb texture in unreal does things better than a 1mb texture in cry-engine... its functionally identical and its a 64 bit product - they will be able to put in as many car values as they want. Its what's built around it - again largely the same depending on who is doing what. And fit for purpose.

    You can today download unreal and play round with it, if you want...

    I am not sure of a racing expert who doesn't play Raceroom. Thats the one he should be playing if he wants to do leagues and things and not cost an arm and a leg. AMS2 was just a means to grow his channel. AMS2 is not even a bad game. Its already got more about it than Rfactor 2. What I mean with the phrase 'more about it', well Rfactor 2 the emphasis because it does so very well is on the grip and driving line. There's not as much emphasis beyond that. F1 2019 - emphasis on good production and holistic race-day/season feel. Does it well.

    AMS2 is on track to do more well than RF2 and even Raceroom, at least expanded upon it in terms of driving; so it can bring about those intense and expansive racing moments like a simulator should; which it does actually even now, even if sometimes you have to pick the car and track deliberately. So Reiza, they were going to do cars and tracks for Pcars 2 in some collaboration, but they were already doing a full game; at the point Ian Bell who sold this 'lousy' engine and studio for 30 million (somehow....right....??? haha). This is how they got onto the madness engine. They were probably going to work in house for SMS, but they are doing this collaboration as separate entities or an armslength apart.

    There was a bitterness in Ermin's voice when he said "actually it hasn't done much of anything..."

    Ermin just wants 100k subs, and he wants them 'yesterday'. He wanted AMS2 to be the driver of that, it seems. But if its a question of re-making RF2, then no... why do 10 values when the next level sim demands maybe 15 values worked out. I do not think Ermin, with his business hat on, though he may have nouse, gave thought beyond his own enjoyment of the sim, to the fact this was always going to take some time.

    Oh and he may have should have played it a little more extensively - I find it hard to believe a guy like him would NOT enjoy the title. Anyone playing this on a lesser wheel should be using at least 50 LFB for example - there's so many variables why he would not enjoy it. Even a cursory glance would tell a person the game is far better now than it was 12 months ago, let alone 5 which was his last video prior to this.

    He's full of it, respectively - aussies we know what we're like - he either over-praised it then or under praised it now

    I think the AMS2 game and madness engine are a great match. Its still being developed. Things like the ARC you can definitely see in slower speed how its all coming together. Take a drive of Rfactor 2 with the Mak corp Group C mod, excellent and after 3 laps in all cars [where extra car in the class is a Mazda] you get that awesome rubber feel where you can hit the spot and be sure the car will stick/push it - Raceroom does this as well, well the ARC shows up how you do not need speed in AMS2 to make these things happen - its a far more pliable game/engine, and its measuring things seemingly across a wider spectrum. Its continually getting the finer details put into it. I would also expect it to scale better from low to high in the end - I bet you there is some trickery going on in Rfactor 2/mods. The reason why I am even bringing this up is because AMS2 is not using as much trickery - so we note how in the absence of this, the ARC is not fully fleshed out yet. This is surely a better way (via luxury of the engine) to develop the title. They did seemingly go through a period whereby they cut and changed things, but usually they do not add things to take them away. I am going to guess if they do not add things as needed for peoples flavor of the month - its an efficiency concern not an error.

    - So what I mean is that AMS2 is emphasizing everything, not just a good tire grip, or whatnot - thus I think Ermin may be underwhelmed, because nothing is jumping out at him or something, or he had not been around to see it grow. There still may be a lot of work to do, but the game didn't deserve the panning it got. Raceroom, and others may have added 200 users a year over time concurrently. AMS2 barely lost 100 at a time when interest in the market took a high due to covid and a low as some probably left the scene - hey... Raceroom went from 2600 to 1300.

    See, I am trying to be accurate and not run an agenda. If AMS2 in one year was affected by both of those things (market surge and deflation, and game interest rally then indifference) may be that explains some of these popularity things he measures everything against.

    The guy got a bit ridiculous trying to explain simple things in complex ways. It may be true in some ways but it doesn't explain why the game isn't enjoyable to him. I think its something else, less malicious than his sensationalist video is suggesting and even then it doesn't matter. He doesn't like it, thats ok. I bet he still has it installed and may play it again one day. The video was about why he doesn't play it, I think he just over-reached on the content to erroneously explain that.

    Or his editor was not doing their job - for consistency. I am not fully sure. OR the video was full of half truths and errors, in both judgement and application. But ultimately I think he simply outgrew the game he now believes he is far too big for. I wonder if he holds the same opinion of the RPG on his channel? Its not exactly popular either. Sometimes popularity is a measure for certain people. If no one is playing NBA2k they try to find something else for no particular reason.

    He's just another sheep in the heard after all; he is just trying to 'pivot' to authority figure and media darling. I wouldn't say that too loudly of him - because it really was a video that tried to do too much in the 15 mins. Don't forget he didn't really want to cover the game so I guess the video was compromised on that fact alone.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
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  14. John Hargreaves

    John Hargreaves Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    That's just what I meant to say :)
     
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  15. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace BANNED BANNED

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    Great minds think alike
     
  16. Cully

    Cully Active Member Reiza Backer

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    I totally agree about the race room comments, he 100% completely ignored it yet expects to be treated like a know it all.
    I used to like him when he started out but he has revealed his arrogant know it all side too often now.
    But more than anything he is just plain wrong in this video.
     
  17. Kuku Maddog

    Kuku Maddog Active Member

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    Accept the part about Aussies being humble, that’s just not true
     
  18. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace BANNED BANNED

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    The video started so well but by the end of it the video had really got up my nose so I'm quite willing to say this can be true more than any one likes to admit.

    The Aussie culture is taking a nose dive of late for things unrelated to anything ermin. Or I'm getting older.

    As for ermin without trying to hurt the guys feelings about his arrogance which he usually keeps in check, the video was simply a half truth.

    I expected more of him. I'm sure he's aware of the troubles of software development.
     
  19. Synaks

    Synaks Member

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    While I agree that the STM is quite a complex model, it's accuracy has to be questioned. Reiza has done a fantastic job bringing it closer to reality, but the model itself has it's flaws that Reiza has had to work around. My point is not that the madness engine isn't complex enough, but rather it has some quirks that make it significantly more difficult to develop on than, for example, the rfactor 1 engine. As a result of this, Reiza ends up putting in insane amounts of work for relatively little in return.
    I've also seen people compare what Reiza is doing on the madness engine to what kunos did on the unreal engine. This is only a reasonable comparison in that they are both working with engines that make it tough for them to develop a solid handling model. The actual work they are doing is very different, while kunos built a handling model from the ground up for unreal, reiza is building on the model already in the madness engine. As a result Reiza doesn't have quite the same understanding of their model as kunos does, which has made it quite difficult for them to make meaningful changes to the madness engine. I believe this is why we always seem to take two steps forward and one step back with each update.
    In conclusion, I'm not saying the madness engine doesn't have potential, but I am saying it has taken a lot of work from Reiza to get it to it's current state, and it's going to take a lot more to be on the level of rfactor2 in terms of handling.
     
  20. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence German localization/Testing Reiza Backer

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    Which flaws? (to be clear, not saying, there aren't some) Any sources? You know, that every sim has to deal with it, even the Pacejka ones?
    Sorry, to say it that way, but the Studio has to decide, if the amount of work is justifying the return, btw., not us forum users.
    That's based on your own personal opinion not an universal fact.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
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