Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Msportdan, Apr 22, 2016.
was a joke, from "whats happening" to "waths fappening"
any juicy gossip on some features renato? ))
Hey guys, i just picked up something from this thread, but it got closed because it is off-topic (I assume), so this thread seems appropriate to ask for confirmation on this. In the roadmap, it even says "developing AMS throughout the year" - singular. So, might be a stupid question cause that's what the statement says, but this is it? V1 comes out 2016 and that is it? I mean, it seems kinda "inefficient" to develop this game, just to do another after that instead of expanding it throughout the years to come. From what i understand, the online activity is already very sparse and this doesn't seem helpful to combat that. Who is gonna buy a game that nobody plays?
I think you may be starting off wrong by adopting the mistaken assumption that games ought to be long-term projects amassing large online communities which provide lasting value for years, when in fact those are usually the exception rather than the rule. Online activity may be "sparse" because PC simracing is a small niche and there are a lot of options these days. The majority of people play AMS offline so while the size of the user base may be a relevant limitation to someone who is primarily an online player, it is not necessarily so for its market at large.
AMS has in fact been developed for years already, if you take into account it´s an evolution of its predecessor SCE and has been given for free to that existing user base - those users have already enjoyed exceptional long-term value. At some point in the near future our focus will change to developing a product that will represent a bigger leap both from a technical as well as commercial perspective, but the release of that product is still well over a year away. In this time & beyond AMS will remain a content & feature-rich sim racing offering at a fair price, and ultimately that´s all that it has to be. It´s not a car or a house afterall, you don´t buy a Pizza for US$ 30 with the expectation it will keep you fed for years
From a development POV it´s in fact fairly efficient as a lot of what´s being done to AMS will carry over to the next product.
Well, there is a bit of a novelty in long-term project and a certain appreciation from the customers that goes with it (maybe im just speaking for myself), but i'm also aware of the fact that rehashing is very common and very successful most of the time. I can't, and do not, blame you at all for this, cause it's a business after all. I was just very surprised when i became aware of the plans, cause after the name change, i thought that this is the "bigger leap both from a technical as well as commercial perspective". Maybe it's cause i read reddit a lot, AMS gained a good amount of traction (no pun intended) and that would be enough to make/keep it successful. That there are [relative] lots of options, is part of my argument/confusion, cause it's not helpful bringing even more options and scatter the landscape even more. Sometimes i wish all of you guys would put your heads together to make it the best it can be and every sim enthusiast is on that single ultimate simulator (but i'm aware that would be complicated on many levels)
However, thank you for the quick and official reply. I'm looking forward to the next iteration.
I once posted on ISI forums an idea about ISI turning rF2 into a "Steam of sim racing". Update all that is needed (like DX version and bring it to a more modern graphic like UE4), add stuff like proper turbo, KERS, etc drop the modding support and after that the content could be created by studios instead of having them making their own sim, they could just sell their car packs there depending on their deal with ISI so they can make a small % of the stuff sold too and profit + improve the sim and give support to the creators.
ISI could charge a few bucks per month to keep a safety rating and license system active (and maybe a few open servers) and maybe with an option to user to pay a bit more if they want to create a league and rent a server directly from ISI, etc.
Imagine if Sector 3 instead of making a full new sim would just put their DTM and WTCC licenses in this sim, Reiza too with the Stock Car Brasil, Copa de Marcas and a Brazilian track pack, etc. Some other studios license historic stuff, NASCAR, hot rods, rally, etc. Some others license and release track packs per country, etc
Probably from a dev team is not a good idea, but as a customer I'd love if this happened and as much as possible of this stuff was all in the same place, specially for online would be a huge plus.
Before someone says "that's just iRacing" no it's not... it would be open for studios and the online could cost like $10 per year (just an example) just to keep a data base with safety rating and license active and some open servers with random races. If you wanted to host a league in your own PC or rent a server you could do it still. They could also allow you to buy extra credit so if someone want to make a league could rent the server time directly from ISI and all drivers that joined the league could pay a minimum entry fee (with the credits) to help paying for the server time.
If AMS had been the big leap, it wouldnt have been free to the existing user base. Big leaps require quite a bit of funding, which is also another reason for AMS to exist, as it sells more than a simple extension of SCE would.
You shouldnt consider though, and I certainly didn´t mean to imply that AMS is a simple "rehash" - sure a lot of the content has its origins in previous iterations, but its main reason of being is that we believe it´s currently a very competitive sim, whereas SCE as it were was getting to a point in which it wasn´t cutting anymore. A lot of people still find SCE perfectly good value for its price though, and that will surely be the case with AMS too even after we release our next title. For the developer it´s healthy to have multiple options catering to these different levels, as at the end of the day these things are quite expensive to develop and the market for racing sims just isn´t all that big.
My take as a simracer (suspect as it may obviously be) is that all things considered AMS is the best all-around sim today and it´s not even particularly close, but that´s based on my own personal outlook on what a racing sim should offer. Others will surely differ on that according to their personal preferences, and that´s the good side of having multiple offerings from developers with different approaches & different priorities. The proposal that companies should have just one single, all-encompassing product, or that different developers should get together for the ultimate simulator may sound like a dream scenario from an user´s POV, unfortunately it is indeed also completely unrealistic, not least because without stimulus or competition there would be no progress.
I disagree that there would be no progress. Especially because sim racing market didn't exactly evolve as much as other game genres despite haivng the competition, in some points there was even regress, IMO.
Devs and studios in a system like that would just keep listening to the community and evolving on what is possible to implement otherwise someone else could appear and do it better and steal your customers if you wait the competition do something so you can do it too nobody will do anything xD
I disagree that there´s been no progress. In all walks of life there always seems to be people with rose tinted glasses looking back at how awesome everything was back in the day, but I was already around the simracing scene 25 years ago and even 10 years ago people would kill to have sims as diverse and as advanced as we have today. Theyre not the all-around perfection of the standard some seem to unrealistically demand, but they´re pretty damn good. If there hasn´t been that much evolution in an area you believe is most important, you should consider that developers usually focus on what users want most. Like it or not, even many of the so-called hardcore sim racers would rather throw their money at flashy graphics and big-name content than they would to physics or gameplay features. Don´t blame the devs for giving people what they want most, the pie isn´t all that big and if the don´t go for the large chunk, they could very well not last. In a long enough timeframe other areas should be catered to too, so long as customers vote with their wallet in that direction and not just moan about it.
I also disagree that the scheme such as you suggest could ever possibly work, even if you could magically get all devs to agree to work in a cooperative, where would customers go to when this all-powerful totalitarian developer became complacent? It sounds a bit like communism to me, and while that may look great on paper it doesn´t really suit human nature.
Anyway we´re straying way off-topic here now
i must admit renato, i reinstalled race 07 the other day and i was almost frustrated that some huge features in that aren't in many sims today. (changeable weather for one/ 2 race format rules/custom season mode even the AI seemed impressive- etc etc)
It is almost like sims have taken a step back for a better tyre model. Which i suppose is good in a way. I just wonder why we can't have it all..a great tyre model and features of yesteryear?! Or am i being greedy?
I didn't say there was no progress, I said it didn't evolve like other game genres did. I mean the progress is not big enough, simracing could and should be ahead of where it is
And no.. this is no communism, it's still a free market, in the day a dev decide to be totalitarian anyone could just start doing their own stuff. And anyway it's not like if someone make this plan a reality every dev in the market would jump into it.
You are taking stuff a bit too literally.
Dan - we could have rain as per GTR2 / Race07 in AMS. It isn´t all that great a system though, and despite claims it isn´t all that used for the cost involved in developing it. We still have dynamic weather as one of our prioritary features for the next title, it´s a costly and long one to develop though, not something you can slap in on a free patch.
We´ll have 3-race format (already is in fact there from the PLR, just dont have options in-game yet) and we will do a custom championship tool too.
Point I´m making is that the current generation of sims is a natural evolution of the previous one, which doesn´t necessarily mean they´re all-around better. Devs go for what users want most and downsize on features they dont particularly care for that much - that may not be you, Will or a couple of individuals, but the target market as a whole.
You need to consider the economics of development vs the market scenarios then and now too, back in the days of Race07 there was only it and rFactor and both were already considered poor graphically in 2007; devs are spending a lot more in asset development now (cars & tracks) both in their quantity as well as their quality, and there are a lot more companies and titles now gunning for that same niche market, which is not all that much bigger than it was 10 years ago.
Will, as per above it´s all well and good to say that and while the technology may be there for it, until you have the full grasp on how long it would take and what it would cost to develop such an all-around great sim vs the money that would be in return for it, blank statements like "sims should be better than they currently are" are not necessarily based on facts. I don´t see the disproportionate progress in other genres you see either, unless you´re cherry-picking.
Don´t get me wrong I find great that there are simracers want these features - I´m one of you, I´m just pointing to the fact that in many cases there just isn´t enough of us to make some of these features cost-efficient. And I say that as a dev whose often compromised our finances for the sake of the product, as much as I care ultimately I want to keep my head above the water too
Well... to me it looks like devs can't do some stuff in simracing because they are separated, each of them in a corner of the same room trying to do it their own way and dropping what is "less" interesting, then years later it becomes impossible or too expensive to bring back some stuff because they were dropped
At the same time it looks like if they were together they'd be more capable of looking and developing the full picture.
If there is too few of us sim racers (or hardcore sim racers) to buy these things it seems the way it is going now is actually worse, harder, more expensive (for both sides) and slower.
Just my 2 cents. I know this all is just a distant dream anyway. So I'll let it go for now
Yeap. But they are all different people, different companies, doing their own thing, trying to do the best possible product, maximizing their profit in the best way they see fit.
It will be up to us, the consumers, to select which company does it right, and which company, maybe not so much. And that will decide the path forward. It is how Capitalism works, for better or worse.
Example (my own) and not trying to flame anyone:
- I purchased Assetto Corsa in early release, because I saw what Netkar Pro was (really hardcore) and thought they would move in the same direction, but with a newer engine. It did not happened that way, unfortunately. I now ocassionally play with it, very now and then, and in retrospective, I think it was a wrong purchase.
- I tried Racerroom recently (free content), and I think graphics, physics and content wise, it makes a lot of sense. But price-wise, it just does not make any sense for me (I live in Latin America, so purchase power is quite an issue).
- Reiza: I bought SCE, and then backed them up in the crowdfunding. I think they are on the right path. Very good physics, interesting content, a very, very good cost-benefit ratio. I wish it was better graphics-wise (not that it is bad now), and I am keeping my hopes up for the next title.
All in all, I am in the Reiza boat, and no fanboyism associated with it. Just a rational decision.
If they can come up with online rankings of some sort, and improve the online availability, I think they could very well hit a home run.
Would I like to have AI and dynamic whether and drying racing line like in GP4, like 15 years ago? Sure, but everything is a compromise.
Oh please drop the capitalism part (I'm a huge capitalism supporter btw and hate living in Brazil as it is now).... and try to understand the point of the idea....
And it's not like everything sold in a system like this would be exactly the same you know. See isimotor.. if we both make GT3 mods we can have different views of the same physics and they'll be different despite using the same base my point is to improve the overall experience and imersion in sim racing
All developers aim to do the same thing indeed, and as they're all getting pretty close in the physics department, i wonder how close ISI, LFS, AC and iRacing are on the mathematical level.
I have to agree with Will on a few parts, but i wouldn't say communistic, but idealistic
But as you pointed our Renato, human nature is in the way often times. One could argue, it is the cause of unnecessary roadblocks and problems, now and probably forever xD.
FTR, i didn't assumed in any way that the new product would be a rehash as such, much less a simple one. I meant it when i said i look forward to the new project (Vulkan support and UE4/Unity engine hopefully). It's just that AMS doesn't seem to be of much value for me, cause racing AI or even hotlapping for that matter, doesn't provide much satisfaction to me at all. It always feels to me like what it is, scripted. My hands are cold doing that, but when i join an online match, i'm drenched in sweat and my heart starts to race against the RPM's. It's actually an essential part of my cardio training xD
One more thing, though, before i sign out from this as my question is answered:
I have to question your 'street cred' here Renato , and i hope this is all in some way still referring to the graphics/weather aspect, cause it's inarguable, that LFS (which was released around since 2003 and in stage 2 around 2006) was at least on par in terms of simulation / tyre physics, if not potentially better. It blew my mind when i tried it for the first time. I couldn't believe how natural and intuitive it felt, even compared to GTR/rfactor/Race07. Even in the sound department, it was so very different in the way the engine would react/sound to input by the driver or environment (hills, curbs and the likes). Sure it had its limitations, and the game itself no mod support whatsoever (which hurt it big, imo), but It could have been huge by now. It is a good argument in regards to progress, however. Whatever the motivation was, others have stepped up. In regards to asset development, how many times have the same cars, the same tree, the same tarmac texture, been modeled over and over just to be put into a new 'game'? Maybe it's the German in me, but that's not efficient
Anyway, it is what it is. So long.
LFS strength was on-line racing. For online racing, modding is not a good thing. Iracing dominates the on-line racing market and strictly has no modding. IMO LFS "failed" because it lacked good AI - the indications are only 20% of sim racers race on line -, and because it had largely fake cars and tracks. Big sellers have real cars and tracks.
True, forgot about LFS which was indeed in the mix then. And enjoyed its share of criticism then too Wasn´t it multiplayer-only with no AI for the longest time? GP4 was based on a single series (so AI is a quite a bit easier to optimize), GTR1 actually stopped mid-race to load different day cycles, rFactor relied on mods, most of which never came close to fulfilling the engine´s potential... I could name critical flaws in pretty much all the old sims, not least because I was led to become a developer for being sick of them as were in fact several others at Kunos, Sector3, SMS today. We remember these titles as exceptional because they broke new ground, but the demands & standards were inarguably lower then they are now.
With regards to asset development, there´s a lot of carry-over value from one sim to another; we´re actually developing new assets to a standard that will allow them to be ported to a newer engine with minimal need of reform work. What would be inefficient would be to try develop the existing graphics engine for example when there is already a plan to discard it.
Will - even though there are all these sims today which may be considered to be doing some things great and others not os much, and while they are all racing games (and thus share some basic principles), they also each have different goals and focus - one is essentially the offspring of a simulation tool for racing professionals; the other is dedicated to multiplayer & online competitions; another is designed to be a AAA multi-platform title so on & so forth - these are all fundamental design foundations which demand a lot of investment & shape the architecture of the software over years of development, so while it may be fun to imagine it, it´s not necessarily realistic to assume some sort of fictional frankenstein software assembling all of these distinct core features into a single title would even be possible today, or indeed that there would be a market to sustain it - unlikely if it it were PC only, and if you go multiplatform you already have to do some compromises...
With all this said, I agree that the technology is there for better, more well-rounded sims and in a long enough timeframe, as technical limitations become smaller & smaller, and with competition doing things better than others some of the existing deficiencies should hopefully erode - we certainly hope to have something even more well-rounded the next time out, to the extent our budget & staff size allows. For the big console juggernaut franchises with their huge budgets there is already little excuse for them not to be delivering more than they currently are - then again they are also big juggernaut franchises because they don´t spend more than they have to in features that present less ROI There is that degree of complacency brought on by overwhelming market share there, but as long as people keep being led on by marketing & buying them...
Anyway enough rambling from me for today - thanks for the friendly discussion gents
Focus of this idea is not to include all devs tho, only the ones with focus on sim racing (or as some like ot call it "hardcore sim racing") and give good offline and online experience. These devs are pretty much doing the same thing and fighting for the same player base that is too small.
I wish I had the money and knowledge to start something like this
Yeah thanks for the discussion. It's a bit sad this wouldn't happen actually, when I joined simracing back in 2007 with GTR2 as my first "serious" racing game I expected we'd be more different in a 10 years time gap. I'm still waiting for something I can say "now THIS is I can call complete, and you can call me a fanboy!"
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