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WHERE IS LIFT OFF OVERSTEER????????????

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by florian ray, Mar 6, 2021.

  1. steelreserv

    steelreserv Steelcast27 Staff Member Reiza Backer

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    In about 3 weeks I will. lol

    And yes, I would also like to stop the bickering.
     
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  2. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    I'm on the same page as you with regards to your thoughts on the matter. Totally.

    But the discussion is only so good as those who input into it and what they input.

    well looks like the issue is done with now in terms of treading water and personality clash. I was more on about as if it matters in any event how one perceives the thing that's visible.

    Doing the whole parlance thing over 5 pages was interesting to say the least! Hehe



    There is living life and playing a game somewhere in there, it would be good to keep it a game and not a topic that needs solving before anyone plays it.

    Then there is the endless breakdowns/analysis and abstraction etc. Not all threads are going to go well any way I suppose and everyone's input and what they want out of it will always be different.

    I am glad though its a topic of interest. I am pretty sure Reiza would be onto such things with things in the pipeline.

    He's probably not going to pull out his project management software to show people and go hey look guys! Haha.. for this anyway but its in there somewhere probably.

    So the answer to the thread title is: it's in the game!

    :p

    One step closer we've all come to classification.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  3. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence German localization/Testing Staff Member Reiza Backer

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  4. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    Just to point out, I absolutely hate the force feedback in AC. I cant figure out a setting that doesn't feel absurd. It ruins the game for me. So that's not where my question of weight transfer is coming from. It's mostly to do with how hard it is to trail brake and how hard it is to spin some cars on corner exit. Seems like even with a powerful car, it's sometimes really difficult to lose control on corner exit. Additionally it seems like some cars have an awkward "wiggle" to them (Formula Classic Gen 3's, once my favorite cars in the game, are now among my least favorite) where it seems like they will pivot around the centerline of the car strangely.

    Again, this could all be just because Im not FEELING the car, so it's hard to tell if it's "right". I say that sometimes, because I think we often underestimate how important the physical perception of the physics are when combined with the way the cars behave in game. Once you divorce the feeling from the activity, it significantly changes how you perceive it. Consider accelerating from a stop with a manual transmission. In sims, you're never going to actually FEEL the clutch bite point. You have to go by other cues, but you can feel the clutch grabbing before it's visually apparent in real life. This fortunately doesn't actually matter much for us, but it affects braking and cornering for sure.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2021
  5. azaris

    azaris Well-Known Member

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    The 90's F1 cars of AMS2 are quite unique in how much play you can get out of the rear tyres simply by feeding throttle into the wheel spin before they truly give up. That can feel a bit alien at times, especially given that the "accepted truth" of 90's F1 cars seems to be that those cars will spin instantly if you look at the throttle funny in 1st/2nd gear. This is how it always was in ISIMotor games, that is how it always should be.

    Now I'm sure if you stab the throttle you can make those cars do donuts, no problem. But I'm also skeptical that those cars really had so little rear grip in low gears. That is evident if you look at the way they did pit stops back in those days:



    If you look at the way Mansell leaves the pit box, he's smoking up both rear tyres while the front wheel are pointing left, yet has no problems keeping it straight. If he tried that in any of the ISIMotor sims, he'd end up murdering half the pit crew because the car would instantly spin 360.
     
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  6. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    These cars felt really good last year. They feel quite odd now. The Formula V12 feels much closer to how the FClassic Gen 3's originally felt. The wiggly/pivoty nature of those cars without losing grip is what's so weird. They were not like that 9-12 months ago. They were my favorite cars in the game then, and yes, you could slide them around a lot. But they feel extremely weird now and not in a good way. Hence why I prefer the FV12 and the FClassic Gen 2's more lately.
     
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  7. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    I agree that the AC ffb is not very good in this day and age by comparison. It took me 6 months to get it to what i needed and that involved turning nearly everything off and using the content-manager application to tweak settings. And again: its turning most things off iirc and sticking to just the well done vehicles. I tried getting a couple of fancy ones (old style muscle cars from sim racer's videos recently) but did not like the result, a tricky car and the FFb for me was lacklustre, but then its meant to be using some new ffb the content manager puts in...

    In short: no, I am not a fan of AC's ffb (or even ACC's) compared to AMS2, I think AMS2 is better there.

    Also Rfactor2 has some magical moments even to this day, but it overall is being surpassed I think anyway [by the active development?] of AMS2 compared to itself, and I am really rating the AMS2 ffb/experience these days compared to several months ago (when it did drop off a cliff)... so its really shining now.

    Perception is key I would think with all the things in AMS2 you mentioned. I also think I am following your explanation and I think I have at least 90% of what you say in my imagination as well.

    So in view of that and other things I went through nearly (not all) every car in the game one day recently with a mind for front end feel and all the other things I liked... then: I was trying the metalmorrow Prototypes just yesterday and they came across great for front end feel. I am using custom fuktor 41 at the moment; so all cars especially those but all showed enormously improved physics, handling and FFB. I was very impressed.

    Maybe you should give those a go and see what you think. I think the FFB and physics in the game right now is very good. I know I made mention once about front end feel and the guys basically seemed to put it in over a few versions, it is definitely loading it up. Thats why I mentioned the MetalMorrow AJR protoypes.

    Not only do they have lift off oversteer they also have a good front end feel. Many cars do - so take the custom fuktor 41 file to Brands hatch with a car of your choice, p1/2 or any actually - and see the loading up feeling... but just note as you go down the hills, you will notice several feelings as in a car the forward momentum will overcome much, including that loading feeling at varying times. Its there. But its not the simplistic AC on/off FFB or whatever kind of feeling I am trying to explain... I like how AMS2 has a spectrum of feedbacks.

    I thought I was in the same camp a while back. But then I actually think its so much better now. They are way more drivable. I made several setups with the retro reiza Gen 3 car 2 one, has to be one of my favorites ever. I am of the belief that the driving is extremely nuanced on many of those vehicles. Maybe they do need more dev time but they are better than ever not worse in my view. Sure maybe they are toned down or something and make less fun 'gaming' but in a sense its far better. I like how I have to really push the thing now, keep up the revs and shove it around a little, before it was just point and shoot - now I feel as though they really need to be "driven".

    Much like the gt4 ginetta cup for steering. Or the ACR (which is a blast) the first in the list of all the cars. Its tiny and underpowered but you can floor the pedal and you need to keep it up there at high revs to get the best out of it.

    So I think there's more driving to be had now. Which is a good thing. I do not know however how this translates to physics and how people would perceive how they should be. I just think that the cars all have more driving to be done in them, rather than just point and shoot type game play. This is most noticable in the Mp4/McLaren f1 car, the senna one with two brake pedals... that was like glue for so long, totally OP and lots of fun, but not fully baked in terms of driving.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
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  8. Tarmac Terrorist

    Tarmac Terrorist Well-Known Member

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    Hi folks, decided to look at L.O.O. again and made some further discovery regarding L.O.O. at certain speeds. Did a direct comparison with RF2.
     
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  9. Simmo99x

    Simmo99x Active Member

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    I'd say its pretty spot on, the way its acting.
    Low speed no aero very twitchy.
    High speed aero more stable.
    Sounds to me like AMS2 is more realife than other sims, IMO and experience.
    Good video...
     
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  10. Synaks

    Synaks Member

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    Hats off to Reiza for being the legends they are and fixing the diffs in the latest update.
     
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  11. florian ray

    florian ray New Member

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    Have to agree 100% mate! This thread can be closed. :D:hurrayreiza:
     
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  12. azaris

    azaris Well-Known Member

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    No one tell GamerMuscle that the diffs have been fixed but GT3 cars still don't have lift-off oversteer... ;)
     
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  13. florian ray

    florian ray New Member

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    Diff ramp 89 and lower preload then even the gt3 cars get quite nasty now
     
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  14. Tarmac Terrorist

    Tarmac Terrorist Well-Known Member

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    wanted to post something to say how much im enjoying the new update and appreciating the work put into it. (in this case, specifically whats been done with the diff). So I made this, and just to be fair made a direct comparison to ACC seeing as it has the same car & track combo. Hopefully it shows what im rambling on about clearly enough. Bravo Reiza!
     
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  15. oez

    oez Mayor of Long Beach Staff Member Reiza Backer

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    Fun comparison @Tarmac Terrorist :).

    A few things to keep in mind when looking at it more scientifically if you will:
    • In AMS2 you need to set "enough" clutches so the scale of lock from them is suitable for each car, 2 is certainly too little for GT3 torque levels
    • The SRO homologated differential modelled is likely a 60 power ramp / 40 coast ramp - or however that translates in the sim physics platform used (usually %s)
    • Good reminder in general: higher ramp value = less extra lock from that ramp
    • Power ramp of 60 is less proportional lock from power than coast, but because positive torque levels are far greater than negative, there is still a lot more extra locking from power than coast
    • With that in mind negative torque AKA engine brake will still apply a decent amount of extra lock through the coast ramp
    • Eliminating coast ramp completely makes a considerable difference when lifting
    • Since you're comparing amounts of liftoff oversteer there's more to be had via setup - as you noticed with the rear wing you can still be ok at speed even if you have suboptimal coast lock
    • Lack of extra coast lock from the ramp is more evident in lower gears where negative driveline torque is higher and preload alone is far too little
    TL;DR; It's a tricky subject :D
     
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  16. florian ray

    florian ray New Member

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  17. Tarmac Terrorist

    Tarmac Terrorist Well-Known Member

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    Thanks mate! Yes I pretty much agree with all of that, like for instance adding more rebound to the rear dampers will promote more lift off over steer and then of corse there are things you can do with camber and tire pressures and so on, but in this video I simply wanted to show the difference when adjusting these two specific things (diff and wing). I suppose I could have just left it at changing nothing more than the diff, but I kinda got into using it in conjunction with the wing, as for the purposes of trying to show the effect in a video the wing being at 0 help exaggerate the effect of the unlocked diff, as its hard to translate the effect purely visually in a video, when the viewer cant also feel the effect, if that makes sense?
     
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