Automobilista 2 April 2021 Development Update

You underestimate my powers
It's no problem to play AMS2 as it currently is on a controller. There are just certain limitations I'd wish to leave behind. Changes to the driving physics are not and should never be necessary.

 

Well I think may be a controller button extender could do the trick but you never know with the changes in 1.2 some of those issues of twitchiness etc may be alleviated.

 

I am not sure about the conspiracy.

ME has input part as a part of the engine. Reiza probably uses it as it was in PC2. It's fine but ME was "broken". So there is a space for improvement and it could help wheel users too.

I don't want any active helpers like PC3 has. On the other hand PC2 has some active helpers too like some auto braking, etc. This is just about small tuning of the input to be on par with ISIMotor.

 

I 've met Kieron a few months ago when he fell into my PCARS2 Group B uphill trap I used to "loot" Players of their points. My regular setting was all helpers of, manual, and cockpit only. After the first 2 laps he asked me if I could turn on all helpers and auto....and suddenly he became hard to beat. We made an appointment for a week later so I could help him a bit with his rating,. we drove GT1 in Le Mans... and boy... that was tough.

Yes, helpers and different kinds of controller can make racing easier... obviously, for a wide range of reasons. His main reason is beeing quadrophlegic, and I was not the one to deny him the game.

But... and I told him, it was not my kind of game.

I play racing, or better driving games to have a sensation as close as possible to driving my dedicated track car. I'm also that kind of guy who uses a Sim prior to driving on that particular track RL.

 

So do I, so you are not alone there.

 

Guys, forget the pity plays please. If you can find a way to do all things, both, without limiting the dev of the sim, and not to the standard of ISI motor and physics and sims of yesteryear... I think they would have done it. I would suggest you's are pushing sh . up hill as the saying goes. I am looking at the project and know they didn't make this glorious mistake you are essentially saying they have.

And also with a controller how do you guys brake? Its not all about the steering, pedals have 16 bits of intensity, but a button has literally 1 point on or off.

This is another reason why I think this is a farce. An absolutely farce. Pure fantasy. This is not the ISI engine. And forget forza ffs please, honestly, I am not trying to be derisive here but its a totally other engine designed with controllers in mind.

Who says AMS2 has to be like that? As it is, I am saying it should not lead with that or be bound by such limitations. Heck go look at Forza development right now and read between the lines. They tried to ditch wheels etc and it didn't work, now its going the other way. They have been hamstrung by design choice as well. The code as source code, if you could read it - no it doesn't automatically change by magic just because you want to use a controller or wheel. It requires extensive augmentation and forethought. Often in game engines you can't go back to the core without a rewrite, and I am not saying its as pervasive here, I do not know but I know enough to know its not in the remit of the project to turn this into forza-level gamepad support or even match ISI - how constraining - at a time when hardware (as I predicted) would come down in price and the market would expand (to adopt the overriding principle of it, wheel bases increasingly for next level gaming and probably VR [many people suspected this of course but this is what supply/demand and market growth entails and better experiences, you always expect the 'next product' to be better - so what do you want AMS2 to do?), and people were moving to heavier-feel simulations because of product differentiation and even public feedback; all linked to, I mean.

It does not matter if thats guild wars 2 because you suddenly want to do multiplayer better (and thats a multiplayer game operating off the same thread), world of Warcraft underwent a big rewrite and fixed bugger-all(and still operates primarily off the main thread), kingdom come deliverance did so for cry engine, anything, star citizen, huge retooling.

Its not apples to apples. I bet you when they sat down to write Maddness engine they weren't going to let something as -apologies - perverse to the outcome as a gamepad is, slow them down in going deeper into the simulation side... then expect to come back one day and fix it with controller tweaks. If Reiza are doing more to the engine and that which sits on top of it (and movement controls is one of those things) then you can't expect wonderful controller magic so soon; or to how things were in other titles. This is no different to how dragon age inquisition was when they tried to get frostbite to move to dungeons and dragons! Or frostbite to Mass effect Andromeda. Do you know how many months they beat their heads against the wall because of the decision from head office to use an FPS engine for multiple genres (though it was pretty good in the end but a pain to utilize)? Oh you want to know?... 2 fkn years. I am not talking about tweaks. I am talking about deep engine integration like Unreal expects off the bat you are playing a doom-like game (go and download it and mess round with it), madness engine expects off the bat you are simulating cars and playing it like with a wheel.

 

1) You now, analog trigger is a fact from 40 year?

2) the developer of "apex of simulation" gp legends, played the game with a flight controller.

3) i would use a decent wheel, but , corona , country economic falldown, speculation, personal situation ..you now, first think in the family and after if some money left over..buy some game for your sons., Like many adult do.

4) i enjoy the game, and I'm probably faster than many who use the wheel that, by the way, is a modern thing, the old player adapts to the available input and still wins.

 

I bet you are very good. And thats great. I am only saying we can't expect huge controller improvements overnight if at all. I think its for commercial industry realities that game engines are going like this primarily, and also all the other reasons.

I am not trying to tarnish controllers - as I stated I use one too in plenty of titles.

But I just want to highlight in my answer to you that I am talking about principle engine usage and how in some ways controllers are diametrically opposed to deeper simulation (but not necessarily fun or being good at racing).

Look at multi purpose stadia... now sports want single-purpose/fit for purpose stadia.


Thanks anyway, thats all I am saying. Its a new way, and therefore there will be push back, but also after many years we will all come to accept it further. I struggled myself when I looked at Forza Horizon, mate, and my wheel which I bought for it was useless. And also f120xx (117/18/19) I felt a little ripped off. But then I understood and took solace/comfort/was at ease and was sympathetic and empathetic to the devs even, whatever it was I didn't feel badly done by because it didn't work with a wheel. I just enjoyed it how it was with a controller. I still play f120xx with a wheel and dirt rally, but nothing else.

Thats when I went and got rf2, ams2, ams1, ac, acc to make use of the wheel. raceroom etc, dirt rally 1 and 2 (and I played dirt 1,2,3 and grid, plus 2019 and f120xx) etc. And they all work in various ways, but lets not kid ourselves the madness engine has those licked. Heck I played games prior to getting a gamepad years ago on the keyboard!

Guys I even played NBA2k 11 and 12 on the keyboard! Pes 5 I played on the keyboard and fifa etc, I did have a controller years ago but I was kidding myself. Though I was good at the soccer games... one year I just went and got a gamepad again, xbox controller since MS released them for PC - in fact I had a PS2 or 3 controller for the PC in 2010 I think for emulation, but moved to xbox controller because it was a straight USB thing. I know where you're coming from, and probably going - to a wheel at some stage. Don't worry man things turn around for you it will definitely, the economy will bounce back strong and with all the pent up demand (and peoples lesser lifestyle options is actually a pent-up demand), the economy will invariably bounce back STRONGER in your country. Doesn't matter which.

 

I Covid times I bought three (3) sets of FFB wheels. Albeit consumer electronics was hard to get last year. It is the best time to do so, because we have Lockdown since September 2020 and it is difficult to spend any money since all Shops, Clubs, Cinemas, Theathers, are closed, and the only way to spend holidays is in your backyard. I gave all but the Thrustmaster Wheel away to friends, packaged with an AMS2 steam gift when it was on sale. Best investment in years... so far.

 

I totally agree with you.

The simulation aspect/value (thinking about Kunos' smiluation value right now with a smile on my face - for those of you who remember the discussion about a couple of years ago) of a game has nothing to do with the controller or the input device one uses.

The controller/input device might give you another experience or more or less immersion but it will not change anything at all how well reality is simulated in a specific game.

I mean, Mercedes Vision AVTR doesn't have a steering wheel nor pedals ... so, is it not a car? Or is it wrong to drive it like this? I doubt so. It's just another way.

I believe that there are many people who enjoy racing with a gamepad because of the reasons already mentioned above.

 

It's probably easy fix to add settings for axes. But we waited for it so long because like everybody knows gamepads are not most used devices for sims. And that's fine but fix should be pretty easy.

Forza is built for gamepads so it's opposite situation. You need to wait for proper wheel support. Wheel support is much harder than axes settings.

 

RaceRaceRace walls of text would probably finished the Mexico border in no time....

 

So look. You did say some short falls which I am getting at myself. But I'm not against the controller aspect completely and taking note of some people's appetite to play with them I will in fact try my controller in the title again and others actually to see how it stacks up. Have for past patches in ams2 and I will again because may be I do need to see it first hand this patch plus for more time using it. Jury is out as to how far a controller can stretch or this axes aspect but will be no harm in trying to see the need.

Yeah but I tried to make the content good. Ah well. I'm going to use the controller before the next patch drops. Maybe you will get a convert. I can only say that I understand why it's not a priority given all the work with the next patch and that wheels are the main way the game is intended to be played. Because of that I would have thought the asking of these things is relatively low on the needs list. It can't be left up to the developer to make better inputs for people for things when actual good inputs exist and it's really a secondary input. That kind of thing.

edit: TEST notes

First thing I will say is that setting controller dampening to 100 from 67 in options made everything a lot better. In a lot of ways the controller is already an advantage. You only have to move 1 inch and the rest is fine finger movements for braking and acceleration. Having all the buttons within a short reach is great for changing telemetry.

Now, those twitchy things are the things that in Forza Horizons 3 and 4 make major difference for winning races. The trouble comes with AMS2 where its an actual simulation so the controller becomes the limiting factor in such things. I don't fully buy that the controller is horrible.

This is the same reason why I went and got load cell pedals and a better wheel from my original wheel. Its simply superior to have 16 bits of turning or braking information over a controller short-shifting of buttons. I am racing with only auto shifting and clutch (it turned that on by default which is nice not to have to worry about with a controller as it all happens too fast on a controller), and no other helpers. But if I turned on every helper with steering and full lock help etc it would probably end up being a major advantage for someone who was good at the controller and used to it. I do like the controller and have used it before not just in this title but others. But it will never be a substitute for a wheel. The turning circle of a car and the braking capacity and all the nuance that goes with it can't be had on a controller anyway.

On a controller with a spectrum of 0 to 100, you may only be able to sample in real time 50% of that (and that 50% is weighted heavily to being useful) but on a wheel and pedals the other 50% of fine-grain control when and where you need it is simply more helpful. Hard to explain, but a wheel definitely offers more utility over a longer distance of inputs so as to be accurate - it really eeks out more of the simulation that a controller simply cannot model.

So I am not buying the arguments that a controller will match a wheel or can be a substitute for one, which is not to say the controller is a legitimate way to control the car, its just not the same.

This is why I think in terms of forging out a development and even a feel for how the driving is, it can't be done in light of a controller and I can see why they have not done more around that; to dev for that as well or on top of wheels etc/the simulation how its intended whatever that may be - I think a controller is more a come from behind option than a forethought given this is how the game engine operates best.

Though I can see it from both sides - that indeed its not like i want to 'put down the controller' or throw the controller down in anger or despair, I do actually want to drive with the controller, I just understand the wheel is a better choice. One area where a controller is superior or may offer more utility is of course rally games perhaps; where even wheel people will say they are at a disadvantage. The twitchyness needed for rally games is often better had on a controller (but in forza horizon on dirt a wheel is lacking). In AMS2 no matter how good they make the controller (and its just quality of life stuff), the controller as to the limits of the simulation (and not fun) will always be the limiting factor.

Therefore maybe AMS2 in fact does straddle the area of fun and simulation, but the core of the game is simulation - which it most certainly holds true to, so its a tough nut to crack. This is actually why I have always been of a mind to say controller work is not a priority. I totally get it though, its just enough now, but not enough, kind of thing.

the last thing I did was put steering sensitivity and maybe someone suggested it, from 17 iirc to 10, and tried 12. But this soon went up to 14, and used bigger amounts of counter steering - the controller at 17 is actually an advantage as counter steering is basically unneeded if you do not push so hard. This also improved things (at 14) which it then boiled down to better brake/acceleration control to gain the rotation necessary for the turn in (using the p3 metal morrow open wheeler, 1st car in the section with the rocco; It has been set up not default). Again not as sensible an outcome as a wheel but it did improve the limiting aspects of a controller a bit.

The course was Goiania short.

So the way I look at it is like a flight sim. Its just better to get closer to the actual apparatus for using the machine. Thats how I look at it. I think a controller will always be at a simulation disadvantage, and if people want better controls they have 2 options, yes to use a controller and tweak it, but ultimately all that can be negated and gather the extra simulation by moving to the more advanced apparatus. I would say the controller as it is now is serviceable. Its just not ideal. But if I am going to go play Falcon 4.0 to the best of my ability (which I am not very good at any simulation without huge amounts of practice) I would go get a flight stick. There is just too much happening before a controller or in that case a mouse and keyboard is overwhelmed.

That is why I would not count on my controller to play this game and never did - a simulation is fine-grained. Instead of 1.1> 1.2> 1.3> 1.4> 1.5 a controller wants to cut corners and do 1, 2, 4, 6, 10. A controller by its very nature wants simplification as they were developed for platform games and light tasks. I think its at odds with what AMS2 is presenting. I will have a crack at rfactor2 with this and AC/ACC even. It will amount to the same thing.

So with Rf2 its a simpler game to be honest in that its turning is not needed as much with a controller compared to ams2 - its grip fall off is very thin. You can definitely over turn in ams2 but not in the old isi engine. Its not apples to apples. IF reiza did limit steering etc or expand its setup, I bet you the result would not be the same - you are losing more simulation imo with ams2. Its an engine that is simulating much more. So I don't know guys I think the answer is to make a solution in AMS2 at this stage would not be productive enough.

I think its a bigger issue than controller people are giving it credit for. IF controllers are as conducive to things like trying to play an RTS game with a controller, in that the AMS2 game is next level simulation or something (eventually/this patch basically coming), then I do not see the major fuss over controllers. If we have to leave behind controllers, for example (just saying) in order to reach the next level, like we had to give away just the mouse when people were playing adventure games like Monkey Island, well, we moved on to different types of games which required different inputs. Its like for me anyway to say if we want virtual reality type games then why do we have to leave behind the people with flat screens?

If we want different, bigger, better, then sometimes the input methods need to remain non limiting. You guys act like this has never happened before no offence its not a failing. What about text adventure games when we moved to mouse inputs? The same conversations were had - people said "but i liked typing in adventure games!"

Or when skyrim moved to its style of gameplay versus oblivion. I played f1gp from microprose with the keyboard - but it was a simple game.

What about virtual reality versus flat screens, what about games like falcon 4.0 versus just keyboards; with added complexity comes added input requirements or equipment. I am just saying, if a controller is good but doesn't cut it, then I am sorry that is the case, its not bad, but I do not see why it needs to fit into a box people are making. This is not a rod of reiza's making, they are going for a certain type of game. This is not even a rod of SMS's making. So what you know, hey they tried to make an engine that was more advanced. I can't expect to type in directions, for example like people used to do, in order to move.

I cant log into AMS2 and type in 'north' and have my car go north. Or type in "look east" and look out the side window...its too slow. I am sure some controller QoL can come about but I do not know what the major fuss is when this is not the first time this kind of thing has happened, but I do know, we never look back.

 

Mate, where were you when they asked me write 2000 word long essays in school ? Anyways, I read the word "controller" a few times in there. I don't think that we should be discussing the use of a controller anymore. Because, as long as the person using it enjoys the game, then I do not see any problem in that.

As long as games are being released on PC and Consoles, there will always be some support for either the Keyboard/Mouse or Controller. You can't beat Reiza or anyone else for asking to improve upon that support.

 

Same here actually. And I did enjoy it and it's not my first time.

Well it can be boiled down to two things I noted above all else.

Rf2 basically 'drove itself' and ams2 did not because AMS2 is actually, in lieu of all the additions it's receiving over time [now] the more advanced simulation when it comes to movement [and other things]. But also holistically. Rf2 has a more narrow band of movement - but you can bet when they first made it that it was a technical achievement - and if ACC is so good, well given how that engine is (probably they wished they could extend it further) then why are they making a new title so soon if not to get more money for a new product, than to realize they could have been more ambitious or something; or that ACC is just a stepping stone (one where people still deem they can use controllers adequately) to a new title when they can finally nail down/finish a new game engine they are working on? I wouldn't expect a controller would be sufficient for ams2 even with all the best controller quality of life improvements mooted. This is why I like ams2 actually, the movement. If a controller is sufficient for the next ACC I will be surprised. I would argue its not as it is now. I can tell you that if I bought Rf2 without first owning a wheel I would deem myself unable to play it properly, so why bother so much.

Yes there will always be overlap. But it's not the same as wanting to use a controller to the same level. At some point and it's a point I don't like making, people would have to make a switch. It's an uncompromising reality or even argument of one, but it seems there's no getting round it. If others are happy to accept less in that then that is fine.

Rf2 and even AC and ACC are hemmed in when it comes to control compared to ams2. It's little wonder things are like they are.

And mate that's like all console games they essentially play themselves. Why do you think quick time responses became a thing with in game movie experiences? It's the best way to keep high production values combined with user input and if you notice, due to the input, the user input is the least in that compared to the movie. There's definitely a place in the market for that but ams2 is not that. So controllers are a bit of a tough pickle.

The production value in ams2 is the nuance of the simulation. Controllers are definitely fun but at odds with a lot of the nitty gritty experience. It can still be fun I agree. Controllers are a great input method and for a long time. I was surprised when they did not measure up months ago, but if a solution exists for people in them then let's hope it can be done one day.
_
But in saying that, I want to point out how advanced AMS2 and madness engine is compared to ISI/rfactor2 - look at the new weather. Its like two ends of a stick - in rf2 you basically just hold the controller to turn and its a narrow band as I explained (yes! I know! we all supposedly "jizz" to coin the American term at the thought of that tire model and its ffb; but I am here to tell you its superseded) - what happens when the simulation in AMS2 goes for winter weather and you slide more, or the tyres begin to heat up and you lose the ideal grip? I know some of that happens in Rf2, but its a more static game than we care to think. I think its in raceroom you don't have rain or night time. Its inherently more static too.

How can a dev program for one end of the spectrum (and a user use the input method adequately) if the game is being spun/designed and the engine supports on the one end dynamic/diverse weather and sim rigs with wheels to get the most out of that... and on the other end a gamepad? So the way I look at it and heck if I thought controllers were good for implementation I would be lobbying for that - so it must say something that I think they are not suitable, in the conceptual phase, let alone implementation to run 1:1 with wheels etc.

Eg controller and older engines with their parameters that lay atop the foundation of input method (the output), old engines may be 1-10....ok.

New engine and methodology, for which one may gain benefit using VR and wheels, its like TV color spectrums in the age of digital and HDR, ok... it becomes -5 to +15....

How do you resolve that as an effective input method let along implement it all the way along in development, when we all know with all the new dynamics in Madness engine - yes and the fact that madness engine is extensible, well you don't, not really, or its trickier to be elegant than not. And this is where I come in - at the start of my argument (read: hope for people, not discourse or disdain or dislike)... would be they alter their concepts and implement their own ideal input solutions. Because the controller was struggling even before AMS2 turned up. This is where the people over at Forza and their development which I am not privy too, and we look at the cluster/F star citizen was for a time, where they needed to employ 500 people to keep it ticking, to the scope... well the scope here with controllers, etc, it would never matter anyway... that at Forza they no doubt had this quandary themselves of which way to go. And it will fall short of the things you come to ams2 to play. So thats what I am saying; that it was never a question in the mind of the developer is not a thing to say controllers were left out its just what it is. If a dev is going to target next level, be it something that makes sense for VR or for a wheel, it lets you do more so upgrades are a thing in computing no one likes. In this manner it does not surprise me as the game has advanced and the engine becomes augmented or even used to its [more] full capacity, that controllers as a satisfactory means began to slip. I don't think its down to approach so much as its down to imperative. Yeah and star citizen had that quandary too, to not put it out of reach. But I think you will find its not in the M.O so much, because the game is so much more than that. It wouldn't matter if they had 1000 people working for them, I think the games scope precludes some control methods we're all used to - and it must be said I am fond of games controllers, and I hold that view. So there you go. I am just saying input methods aside - before that is all set in stone, a game engine like Madness engine which is extensible, I am not so sure the M.O would be to knee cap it - is this not what people level at the Pcars series - that SMS knee capped their own development. One thing they didn't demand was that it ran so well on a controller than people would throw in Forza or some other controller friendly title. The line of thinking that they somehow made it easier for casuals (thus control methods etc, before casuals turn into sim-racers) is reductionist. I mean RE: the thought that "oh but they never bothered to make the controller settings good just like AMS2"... thats reductionist or bad logic.

Nah... haha I am sorry if this sounds glib - but no! They just never wanted to aim to aspire to a title that a controller would be totally ace at when they made the engine. How those games ended up is for other reasons. But I think you will find in the years 2010 to 2018 when those titles were the ones, the demographics were changing, as was hardware, as was anything. Thus the engine was made with the future in mind, and the spot they aimed at didn't 'understand' the time it would be in. Studios actually are lucky the engine is as flexible I assume from how we see the dev and implementation happen, is the way it is. Thats luck. Its not malformed. I know my arguments are compelling because now look at Raceroom's latest updates - its removing options when it comes to FFB. There's expansion in industry's and contraction, and I think the whole shebang is moving towards wheels anyway and this is why whent people sit down to make products like at Fanatec and they do research they understand "there's an opportunity" to make a cheaper wheel, etc, thats where the research goes. Thus in several years time the reality is different, and may we let AMS2 and the M.E move with those times. Even ourselves. Because this is not a sunk cost fallacy on my part - but I used to be a controllers only type guy. I didn't want a new input method. But I had to I deemed.

 

Oh, poor Mexico

There is a thread for gamepad support with a pro who can help you. You probably don't know how to set it and probably no skill either.
Gamepad Support - Analysis, Suggestions, Wishes

 

Respectfully I disagree.
I don't know why you're trying to put a bitter spin on this. I want to be candid. Some just seem to need a lot of backstory. Why do you think wheels exist. Another control input yes.

But people use gamepads in these things until they use wheels. A relatively small number of people remain with gamepads. The support for both is relative to use and what can be done with them overall but thanks for the link!

 

So by your logic since DD exist why loosing time with low tier wheels like G29 too?

I don't want Devs to ruin DD FFB for taking care of Logi wheels!

As I said your thinking is faulty, taking care of gamepads is no detrimental for wheels or game physics in general.

AMS2 is a SIM which supports from high end wheels to gamepads as rF2, ACC, AC, R3E, etc etc

Then there are titles like PC1-2, Forza, GT which focus more on arcade but... surprise!!! Those support wheels too!!! How they dare?

Game physics is a Devs choice, no matter which device they support, gamepads will have some aids but to compensate the limitations, not to ruin overall physics or to give advantage against the wheel users since AMS2 aims to be a simulator.

Time to move on now...

 

Raceracerace should change his handle to Typetypetype