1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Camaro SS is broken

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Freeway, Aug 4, 2020.

  1. Freeway

    Freeway Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2020
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    38
    As an avid Camaro SS owner, I believe the Camaro SS as modeled by AMS2 is inexcusably bad. Why?

    Minor point: Their weight is basically correct for a ZL1 not the lighter SS. In reality, the 2016 SS should be closer to 3600 pounds.

    Real point: In the REAL Camaro SS, with TC off and Stability off, at dead stop, you can hammer the throttle (modulating so as not to cook the tires) and maintain a straight line with very little effort. Front end gets a little light. Back end squirms a tiny bit, but the grip and acceleration are amazing. Turn in is likewise amazing. And, if you sense too much understeer, you can always add a little throttle to compensate. Keep in mind that even on stock run flat tires it is good for nearly 1G in the corners. Corner exit is also very very strong. As such, the car is predictable up to AND over the limit so correcting a slide and/or drifting corners is all but second nature. And, the brakes will NOT let you down (although the brake dust is annoying). Moreover, the REAL car can be comfortably driven by a novice or an expert. In either case, a bit of maturity and good sense should keep you, as well as the cars next to you, safe and happy.

    Many may think I expect too much from a sim, but the fact is I really like ACC's GT4 Camaro (which is basically a detuned SS). AMS2's Camaro SS is downright awful in comparison.

    That said, I believe Reiza's force feedback will ultimately be fantastic. But, what is the point of creating fantastic force feedback if the cars themselves are so poorly modeled? And, adding new cars without fixing the old ones is like sweeping the problem under the rug. Reiza can knock this out of the park if they focus on what they do best. But, Rieza's initial release of the Camaro SS is lacking in almost every respect.

    For some Camaro SS specs:
    https://www.motortrend.com/news/2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-first-test-review/

    Meanwhile, this is a video of the bigger brother, Camaro ZL1 1LE, being absolutely MANHANDLED at Nurburgring:


    TLDR: The Camaro SS is not some delicate flower to be finessed all over the place with tiny modulated throttle inputs. No, it is a car that demands to be driven hard. Look at the REAL video above. I am not a big fan of comparing videos to determine how cars drive... in this case, I think the developers need to understand exactly how badly they missed the mark.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. VFX Pro

    VFX Pro Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2017
    Messages:
    193
    Likes Received:
    74
    Even if your points might be accurate, you clearly lack some tack and diplomacy. Are you offering to drive you car to Brazil for them to spend days get familiar with it or pay for them to rent the car and the track time? Are you able to model car real-time physics and do a better job yourself? Then you missed your mark on delivering respectful and useful feedback...
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
  3. Freeway

    Freeway Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2020
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    38
    I figure they can probably try the competition: ACC's GT4 Camaro. Likewise, anybody in the US can likely test drive one to verify my claims.
     
  4. Freeway

    Freeway Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2020
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    38
    I gave specs. I gave video. I gave first hand accounts.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Freeway

    Freeway Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2020
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    38
    And, I really want to see AMS2 succeed.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  6. Micropitt

    Micropitt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2020
    Messages:
    444
    Likes Received:
    313
    I'm pretty sure after your excellent posts the Developers will instantly drop everything they are doing to fix that Camaro to your liking. It's not like the Devs have a 5 kilometer long to do list. :rolleyes:
     
    • Dislike Dislike x 8
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Andy-R

    Andy-R Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    662
    Likes Received:
    210
    I have not tried the Camaro since beta and am sure it has it's issues big or small but I don't think comparing to a GT4 car makes a lot of sense. While modification might be minor compared to GT3 I'd still consider it pretty extensive. Enough to make it quite a different machine to a road going one.
    2018 ZL1 GT4.R: The baddest Camaro on the planet hits the road!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Micropitt

    Micropitt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2020
    Messages:
    444
    Likes Received:
    313
    • Agree Agree x 2
  9. Damian Baldi

    Damian Baldi Active Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2020
    Messages:
    167
    Likes Received:
    118
    At some point he is right. If the devs don't have data about a car, or are not able to make it close to it's real performance, better don't release it. It's better release it later that release a car totally different to the real one that will need to be changed several times.

    You don't need to drive a car to build it for a sim, you need data, watch how it's driven, get info from owners or ex drivers, compare with other cars etc etc.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  10. Freeway

    Freeway Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2020
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    38
    Releasing a simulated stock car which many own, drive or have test driven in real life is inherently risky because anyone who has actually driven the car can tell very quickly whether the sim is in the ballpark or not. Moreover, the danger to Reiza/AMS2 are not the owner's who come over to say this car isn't right yet. The danger are those folks who have never actually driven it, ridden in it, or adequately studied it, but yet believe it is fine as is... I am coming here simply to let Reiza know it isn't ok and it needs attention. I have faith that Reiza can get this right.
     
    • Like Like x 8
  11. Micropitt

    Micropitt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2020
    Messages:
    444
    Likes Received:
    313
    Just out of curiosity, why don't you file a Bug report? I mean, that would be the easiest way bringing the issue to the Devs attention. You made the post at RaceDepartment and then posted it here as well. I'm not saying you are wrong but there also is a mechanism in place to report it. Just posting it here in the Forum is no guarantee that the Devs will see it.
    Bug Reports - Automobilista 2 (Read the Opening Post)
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Freeway

    Freeway Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2020
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    38
    The best place to post it would have been in the beta forums to which I have no access. I understand there is an ongoing discussion regarding the Camaro SS in the Reiza beta forum wherein people are continuing to claim it is ok as is despite the input from real drivers. Moreover, is it a bug if the beta users believe it to be correct as is or worse if the developers believe it is ok as is?
     
  13. Micropitt

    Micropitt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2020
    Messages:
    444
    Likes Received:
    313
    It doesn't really matter what the users in the beta forum think. What matters is what the Devs think. You can bring the issue to their attention by posting a bug report. Everything else is pointless.
     
  14. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    Messages:
    2,936
    Likes Received:
    16,981
    Camaro SS 2018 Spec (Manual Coupe) 3685lb = 1671kg + 80kg for driver = 1751kg for 455 BHP. - source. This is the car modelled in game, and it´s supposed to be the Stock Car series Safety Car, street stock with street tires. I´ve had a few laps on it myself. Pulls just under 1 Lateral G on a skidpad, bit more possible in the game - we did take some creative licensing at the last minute by making it the manual version which explains some current inconsistencies with the cockpit model itself, but by and large specs and performance are accurate.

    Now that per se doesn´t say much about how accurate the handling and the tyres themselves might be - there is always room for improvement and I´m sure there is a good deal still to be found in the SS. But you´re not going to find it comparing it to a Camaro GT4 or ZL1, or even the SS 1LE with a performance package, these are very different cars running on very different tyres, differential and performance oriented suspension...
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
    • Like Like x 7
    • Informative Informative x 6
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. VFX Pro

    VFX Pro Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2017
    Messages:
    193
    Likes Received:
    74
    Dude you are SO wrong... How many people actually own a Camaro SS and plays this simulator and care enough to find the differences...? That is basically him alone...

    What kind of hardware is this guy even using? 6 DOF? game gamepad? How can you even properly judge and comparing apples to apples...

    Most people are truly happy with such car, the sound, etc... why not release it? So following that flawed logic all the very old cars where data doesn't exist shouldn't be released? Imaginary cars like F-Reiza shouldn't be released either...?
     
  16. Freeway

    Freeway Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2020
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    38
    Very much appreciate the response. Kinda disagree but only a little.

    The SS, the SS 1LE and the ZL1 are all built on the same chassis and share their basic driving characteristics. While the ZL1 1LE on super sticky tires holds 1.04g, the SS holds between .96g and .98g on runflats. While the ZL1 ILE slows from 70 to 0 in 141 ft, the SS does the same in 147 ft. The major difference is of course the engine: The SS has a 455hp/torque and the ZL1/1LE has 650hp/torque. The ZL1 also weighs a little more due to the larger engine, etc. The 6 piston ZL1 vs 4 piston SS both stop extremely well. There are subtle differences in the rearends as well. But, their overall driving characteristics are extremely similar. They both have gobs of torque (though one has an extra helping of same), but otherwise they both tick all the boxes.

    Regardless of whether you are in SS or the ZL1, if you hammer the throttle in a straight line at 20-50 mph, the wheels will most definitely break lose, but they will not attempt to send you sideways into the guardrail the way AMS2 does. Likewise, when you hammer the brakes, even with TC and stabilitrac off, the wheels may lock up, but the car will typically continue in a straight line without the tendancy to squirm left or right. Finally, if I go to turn in to a tight corner, my SS does not push as though the treads are 100k mile tires. They have very decent turn in with only the slightest bit of understeer which is easily overcome with light throttle where it becomes an issue. Lastly, the real car behaves very well when it has exceeded the lateral grip of the tires. As is more than evident in the video I posted above, the cars handle very well at the extremes and over the extremes of tire grip. So, I grant you, the ZL1 1LE has more grip and more acceleration, but through the entire line up from 1LT to ZL1 1LE, they all handle extremely well, including but not limited to the 6 cylinder 1LT Camaro. If the tire model is the source of the squirmy acceleration, squirmy deceleration, and nasty understeer then lets focus on that. Either way, the car model or tire model needs to adjusted so that it inspires confidence and doesn't make you afraid to work the pedals hard.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. Freeway

    Freeway Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2020
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    38
    VFX: My system: i9-9900k overclocked to 4.8ghz, 2080ti, Oculus Rift S, Accuforce Pro V2, GTTrack with NLRv3 motion, Thrustmaster TH8a shifter, Fanatec Handbrake, and Clubsport v3 pedals.

    Your argument might be reasonable if this were not a race simulator or if it were directed primarily at gamepad users. If this were an arcade game, for instance, it wouldn't matter how the car drove. But, AMS2 is neither arcade nor simcade, it IS meant to be simulation. That is what the S is in AMS...

    I think you have forgotten that many pro race drivers use this kind of simulation to train on. Likewise, many amateur drivers including SCCA drivers use this kind of simulation to train on. While most currently focus on other titles, the fact is I believe the Reiza team have the ability to match, if not surpass, those other titles in quality simulation. But, it takes passionate users and passionate developers to make that happen.

    Simulations like this can and do save us plenty on tires, paint, and tickets.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
    • Like Like x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. 2ndLastJedi

    2ndLastJedi Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,694
    Likes Received:
    567
    What I believe (opinion) is that people are carrying to much speed into and out of corners with the road tyres , this car is fairly rapid and the sense of speed can be lost in a sim and going through some corners at 130+km/h are a bit much for these poor tyres ! I found this car to be rather nice to drive when not driving it like a race car !
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. lawgicau

    lawgicau Active Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    39
    When racing this online I was astounded how little grip there was. Not only with power oversteer but also low speed understeer. Adelaide was a nightmare.

    Since then I've reflected and perhaps I'm expecting too much for a road car on road tyres vs all of the race cars in the game. I'd like to see an onboard lap of the real thing with a speed overlay so I could compare the cornering performance in game.

    Jury is still out for me.
     
  20. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2020
    Messages:
    232
    Likes Received:
    98
    Just to add 2c, I also think there are some grip issues (that arent fixable by setup work).
    I drove cars similar to SS and own cars that are both "better" and "lesser" in terms of handling and even the lesser cars can corner better than some cars in AMS2 at same speeds... and the power/torque "kick" that makes the car almost spin isnt realistic at all.
     

Share This Page